.410 vs .380

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I don't think the OP was about what he could shoot the best. Besides, with practice, you can become proficient with just about any weapon.

I am deciding between a new CCW and am thinking small .380 or Taurus Judge.
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The question was more about which one would be a better CCW. Then there was a mention about ammo availability.

I don't think the ammo supply problem would be enough of one to remove the .380 from consideration.

As far as being able to conceal the weapon, if the proper clothing was worn & you didn't live to far south, both could be concealed. Regardless of the adjustments, a .380 will be easier to conceal & easier to carry on longer excursions.

There are many opions on many different calibers & guns that may be better for carry. I agree with some but, back to the original post!!:}

My 2 cents!
"JJ"
 
Stay with the .380.
I've said this more than once...personally, I don't think the Judge will be around a few years down the road. Too gimicky, too cumbersome, too ugly (ooops) and really, how many of the members here would say that the Taurus Judge would be their 1st choice in a self defence handgun? A 2nd choice? Even a 3rd choice? Certainly not me.

One thing I was very proud of last year was I was able to talk my son out of getting a Judge. He chose another handgun that can be carried everyday and has significantly more firepower (read high capacity .40), a proven track record and it's just way more pretty to boot!

Plenty of very reliable .380's made today. The ammo has gotten so much better also.
 
I don't dispute that either a .45 colt or a 3" magnum slug in .410 would cause more damage than a .380. I think most people here would agree with that. Not all, but most. :rolleyes:

One thing that seems to have been missed in this discussion is the empty pocket scenario. Unless you live in Nome, the chances are at least 100 percent that you are going to encounter a few days of weather that require a tshirt and maybe shorts.

The key to concealed carry is HIDING that hogleg, and while you can cram a judge into a holster under a parka, you aren't going to be able to slip in and out of the grocery store like a ninja with it hanging out of your shorts.

The judge handguns that I have seen are as large as my colt .357, and that is hardly a CCW candidate. For 3/4 of the year, you need something that is flat, small, and can be carried in a pocket or waistband, unless you have a specially designed european shoulder bag.

You need to consider this problem. If you find yourself leaving behind the life boats because they take up too much deck space, sooner or later, someone is going to make a movie about the tragic end that befell you.
 
410 loaded w/ OOO buck is a vicious round. Far superior to a 380 and better than a .45 Colt, at least at short range.
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The test you showed was using a 18" barrel subtract about 5-600 fps from a short barreled judge.
I'll just stick with my 45 Colt 250gr Golddots and since I have 45 Colt shot shells that rival a 2 1/2" 410s performance on snakes/rodents at close range you can keep your judge I'll just pack my 4" Vaquero.
my vote between a Judge and a .380 would definately be .380 it's at least usefull to me.
 
I love my 380 pistols for size & concealment.
They can get the job done for sure.:)
Judge will probably end up being a novelty gun in the near future. :(
 
The test you showed was using a 18" barrel subtract about 5-600 fps from a short barreled judge.
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REALLY? It will drop from 1100 fps to 500 fps? BB gun speed? Slow enough to see the pellets? What's your source for this?
 
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Fail.

http://mcb-homis.com/judge/index.htm

Two hundred FPS less. So maybe a few inches of less penetration. Not a real issue since the test in the link said the OOO buck penetrated over 18".

Judge will probably end up being a novelty gun in the near future.
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Agreed. But that has nothing to do with claims that 410 won't break the skin of an onion.
 
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The Judge is what it is.

Most standard 12 guage buckshot loads will send 9 pellets of 00Buck out of the barrel at 1300-1400 fps and is considered a good stopper if multiple hits are made.

A standard 410 shotgun will send 5 pellets of 000 buck out of the barrel at around 1100 fps and is considered a poor choice by anyones standards.

According to your link the Judge averaged 860 fps with only 3 pellets.

If I had to use a Judge it would be loaded with good 45 ammo. If I were going to use 45 ammo I would prefer it to be in a smaller, more accurate package holding more than 5 rounds. Which are readily available, costing less than a Judge.
 
Don't choose a firearm based upon the ammo you have on hand. The Judge is a large gun, no getting around it. I like a Kahr MK 9, 9mm, 6+1. The larger capacity 8 rd. Kahr mags fit, extend out the butt. If I'm going to "go big" for carry, I'm going to opt for 44 magnum in a N Frame Smith -- open carry.
 
The only question is... will you carry it and practice with it!

For a gun in the hand is worth ten in the safe and a skilled hand with a .22 is better than a duffer with a .410 (or .45 LC.)

Just make sure you will actually pack it and practice till you are good.
 
I carry a .380 (Keltec P3at) and have shot a couple versions of the Judge. The Public Defender rendition almost gets the Judge into concealed carry viability. Psychologically most of us think "Cool-a one hand shotgun".... and the Judge IS cool.......but it isn't actually very practical when you examine things objectively. It patterns well enough to take small game at 15 yards with shotshells......... but at 15 yards I can pop rabbits with a .22 revolver and carry heaps more ammo. The buckshot rounds are potentially decent stoppers even though the velocity is not high (those who have not used buckshot on live targets may be astounded at its "stopping power" multiple simultaneous hits seems to work in shutting down the body in ways far out of proportion to the combined kinetic energy of the projectiles) but increase hit probability at normal defense ranges is not a huge plus for the buck loads.......3 or 4 00 or 000 are all lined up front to back in a .410 shell. They tend to shoot like multi-projectile loads in standard revolver cartridges -that is, the "pattern" appears as a close group of holes on the target. Shock value MAY be good but if your aim is off by more than a couple of inches you still miss. The .45 colt is a grand cartridge.......but the Judge is NOT the place to load up bear stopper rounds. Even mild .45 loads are a handful in the smallest versions of the Judge.......and the big judge is a ridiculous thing to try to conceal.
So, would I like to own a Judge? Yes. What would I choose to actually carry? Most of the time a .380 because it isn't in the way. Sometimes a 9mm Parabellum. In the woods, often a .38 special or .357 magnum. a .44 mag and the even bigger cartridges have their own niches.

The judge is fun to shoot , wouldn't be a BAD choice for a nightstand gun (but there are better choices IMO) and would be just dandy to carry on a boat for snake and 2 legged vermin duty plus plinking.
 
Two hundred FPS less. So maybe a few inches of less penetration. Not a real issue since the test in the link said the OOO buck penetrated over 18".
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are you suggesting the 4" version is the short barrel.Wow a carry gun at just over 9" LOL I may have missed my estimate by a 100fps But IIRC the test I read had the 2.5" judge chrono in the mid 600 fps
 
mavracer,

your 1st estimate of 500-600fps is actually pretty close to the truth. Buckshot earned its reputation from the 12 guage at 1300+ fps. The 410 shotgun is already 200-300 fps slower than the 12. By the time you get to the Judge it is another 250 fps or so slower.

Not disputing that buckshot is effective, but the key is multiple hits. When you compare the Judge to the buckshot loads most people think of, you have only 1/3 the payload moving at 2/3 the velocity.
 
A standard 410 shotgun will send 5 pellets of 000 buck out of the barrel at around 1100 fps and is considered a poor choice by anyones standards.
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Sorry, still a fail. The gelatin doesn't lie.

your 1st estimate of 500-600fps is actually pretty close to the truth.
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Did you read the chrono test??? 860-870fps not 500-600.

Winchester 2.5 inch, 3 - 000-BK pellets
Average velocity: 863.6fps (4rds)
Calculated Muzzle Energy: Total: 345 ft-lbs /pellet: 115 ft-lbs


Sellier & Bellot 2.5 inch, 3 - 000-BK pellets
Average velocity: 878.1fps (5rds)
Calculated Muzzle Energy: Total: 339 ft-lbs /pellet: 113 ft-lbs

And those are the much less capable 3 pellet 2.5 loads. The 3" have two more pellets.

Again, I'm not a fan of the Judge but some of your comments are simply ignorant of the facts.
 
Did you read the chrono test??? 860-870fps not 500-600.
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Did you? your test was from a 4" barreled judge. I admited I was 100 off.going to the 2 1/2" judge you'll be lucky to break 700.

A standard 410 shotgun will send 5 pellets of 000 buck out of the barrel at around 1100 fps and is considered a poor choice by anyones standards.
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I don't agree that it's a poor choice only that I'll take my 250gr golddots @900 fps from a 45 Colt. And for the size of a Judge with a 2.5" barrel I'll take a .45 colt Smith mountain gun or my 4" birds head Vaquero.
 
Staff still thinks it's 850. I don't have access to the Handguns article.

Good call. Looks like it is running somewhere around 850fps from a Judge with a 2.5-3"bbl. Penetration is supposed to be between 10" & 12" which is not great but is what I would call adequate.

So about a 240-250gr payload at around 850fps--something close to a .45ACP in terms of energy/recoil but obviously not the same level of penetration. It looks like what Federal gives you over other typical 000 buckshot loadings in .410 is a fourth pellet without too much velocity penalty. They may have also done something to improve the penetration since the penetration figures for this loading out of the Judge seem to exceed what I've seen from tests of conventional 000 loadings also out of the Judge. For example, these numbers are about 2.5 times deeper than what the Box O Truth measured with the .410 000 loadings they tested in a Judge.

I wouldn't classify a .410 handgun as a great self-defense weapon, but I think it's hard to argue that this loading would surely be ineffective where any other typical self-defense handgun caliber would clearly do the job.
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http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=383092
 
check out the penatration in the box of truth.sad
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41_4.htm

I found this artical from American Rifleman (I'm not sure link works)
http://www.americanrifleman.org/Webcontent/pdf/2009-6/200961143754-thejudgerules.pdf

they had the 3" cyl 3" barrel and several 2 1/2" loads were in the 7-800fps range.

earlier you said
Two hundred FPS less. So maybe a few inches of less penetration.
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well here's a little math to dispute that statement.
a 65gr pellet at 1107 fps has ~177 ft/lbs of energy
at 800 fps the same pellet has only ~92 ft/lbs or just a little over half
so how about 9-10" in gel. and I'm being generous from what I've read.
 
Kmar40,

Standard buckshot loads from a shotgun run from 1300-1400 fps. Some as fast as 1500 fps.

If the Judge is getting 850fps that is 450-550 fps slower than standard buckshot loads from a shotgun.

You are using 1100 fps as your standard to subtract the 850 from. The 1100 is already a reduced load and not the load that buckshot earned its reputation as a manstopper on.
 
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