40S&W semi-auto - why no .40 revolver cartridge?

My comments regarding the 45 Colt being underpowered vs. the 45ACP and the 9mm+P was on the basis of comparable manufacturer and application.
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I def get what your saying, most of the .45 Colt ammunition I have seen on shelves is indeed underpowered on par with some of the .45ACP rounds. The .45 Colt really shines with reloaders who can tailor the loads to their liking.
 
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This may be slightly off the original topic, but being somewhat of a research geek, I looked at Speer's website for their Gold Dot defensive ammo.

Took a specification sample of the 45 Colt, 45 Auto in 185gr and 230gr, 9mm Luger 124gr in 'standard' and +P as well as .38Spl +P.

The data under each section below has the Velocity on the left half and the Energy on the right half. I formatted the data as best I could given the html format-to-text limitations.

Mostly was looking at muzzle energy and 50yd energy. Was very surprised that the 45 Colt with 250gr bullet is about on par (in Speer's Gold Dot loading) with the 'standard pressure' 9mm Luger with 124gr bullet.

Appears to be an effect of velocity + bullet weight. ( F=ma )
Figured the 45 Colt would be more of a 'thumper' and have a harder hitting energy, but looks like the velocity has a significant effect on overall energy.

Tried reformatting the numbers several times and they won't parse over...sorry...

Gold Dot Personal Protection - 45 Colt – 250gr
Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
750 721 694 312 289 268

Gold Dot Personal Protection - 45 Auto – 185gr
Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
1050 955 886 453 375 322

Gold Dot Personal Protection - 45 Auto – 230gr
Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
890 845 805 404 365 331

Gold Dot Personal Protection - 9mm Luger – 124gr
Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
1150 1039 963 364 297 255

Gold Dot Personal Protection - 9mm Luger +P – 124gr
Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
1220 1085 996 410 324 273

Gold Dot Personal Protection - 38 Special +P – 125gr
Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
945 891 845 248 220 198

Back to the original topic...

-Mike
 
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Why are you using "Cowboy Action" level 45 Colt loads to compair against the others?
The Gold Dot load you are using is a real weiner of a load.

How about compairing it to the original 40gr of black powder under a 250 gr bullet @ about 1000 fps.??

Or even a modern "standard" load that's 250gr's at about 860 fps?? (looks a lot like that 45acp load, but with a heavier bullet.)

Sorry, but that "personal protection" load is a bit of a mouse fart. Not a good comparison.

Keeping in mind that neither of the 2 loads I suggested are considered +P loads. Both are within SAMMI standards of 14000 psi.
 
Figured the 45 Colt would be more of a 'thumper' and have a harder hitting energy, but looks like the velocity has a significant effect on overall energy.
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You really need to look beyond what particular companies load their .45 Colt rounds to. Just because a particular company load their .45 ACP rounds hotter than .45 Colt does not mean the .45 ACP is a better round in general. Listing all of Speers factory ammunition and comparing calibers by their specs tells you absolutely nothing about one particular caliber to the next. Fact is, .45 Colt can shoot a heavier projectile at greater speeds than the .45ACP. I don't care what Speer, Hornandy, Federal, or any other gun company have their ammunition listed at.
 
Why are you using "Cowboy Action" level 45 Colt loads to compair against the others?
The Gold Dot load you are using is a real weiner of a load.
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It could be because most of the .45 Colt handguns out there can't take the "Ruger Only" loadings that Buffalo Bore and others put out.

Almost all of the .45 Colt handguns will handle the standard stuff.

If the only .45 caliber handgun in your house is a 1909 Colt you got from your grandpa, it's best to stay away from the really stout stuff. It's respectful enough with standard loads.

My Redhawk will take pressures on the order of 50,000psi. But I'd never suggest comparing those to .45acp as that is really apples and oranges.
 
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seems this has turned into a peeing match between 45 ACP & 45 Colt...

back to the OQ... besides the 38-40, I can't really think of a reason why there is not a rimmed 40 caliber revolver cartridge, other than because the 40 S&W came about from the 10mm auto designation, when it was developed...

back to fuel on the fire...

my everyday carry gun is a custom 45 Colt Ruger Montado snubbie I built... my carry loads are the Buffalo Bore standard velocity Gold Dots, which expand to about the size of a quarter, even out of my snubbie barrel... I'm sure they are plenty effective should I need them... & would go as far as to say IMO, they are as good as anything practical to use for self defense

I do shoot alot of "40 caliber revolver" I have a S&W 610 that has also been rechambered for the 10 mm magnum, so with moon clips, the gun shoots 40 S&W, 10 mm & 10mm magnum all equally well with the right handloads... I'd suspect that with the popularity of the 40 S&W, seeing something like a 40 S&W Autorim could be possible in the future, provided the 40 S&W retains it's popularity

... oh... & for the guy that said moon clips suck... well maybe, until you get used to & set yourself up to use them... you get faster reloads, more positive extraction... there is a reason why the competitive shooters use them... because they don't suck
 
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Wasn't the 40 S&W based on the 41 Magnum "police load" ballistics, but designed to work in an auto loader??

That's always been my understanding of the development of the 40 S&W.

41 Mag Police load perfomance packaged for a mid sized (9mm size) service auto loader.
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The .40 S&W was derived from the 10mm auto cartridge. The latter requires a large frame, and when the FBI adopted a down-loaded version of the cartidge, some smart person determined that a .40" cartridge of about the same OAL as 9mm would have the same ballistics and fit in smaller 9mm-sized guns.

The 10mm plowed the same ground as the .41 Magnum had, twenty years earlier; it was bigger, heavier, and more powerful than necessary for the job at hand.

Just as you still had to buy a big, N-frame revo to shoot the .41 Police load, you had to buy a large-frame auto, like a 1911, to shoot the reduced-power 10mm round.

An L-frame .41 Special might be fun.
 
Lots of "ifs" in this thread but the biggest "if" is if the autoloader hadn't taken over the LEO market.

IF that hadn't taken place I think we'd be seeing an L frame / GP100 .41 Special in more than a few cop holsters.
 
Would like to have a rimmed 40 s&W round, preferably in a break top revolver with cylinder kept firmly in line with bore. A stronger Webley reincarnation, with new revolver round? Or a revolver with cylinder length specifically for the .40 round. For sure ejection wiht the short brass, and shorter overall lenght with a longer barrel.

Already have a S&W L frame in .40, and it is good combo, but could do without the moon clips.
 
It could be because most of the .45 Colt handguns out there can't take the "Ruger Only" loadings that Buffalo Bore and others put out
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Neither of the two loads I listed were "Ruger Only" nor even "Plus P"..

Both are stadard pressure loads, and either would be fine and dandy in a Colt Model 1909.
 
Yes indeed - been checking out the Buffalo Bore website and it appears that for higher performance 45 Colt ammo that is still within the 'standard pressure' ranges, that is THE PLACE to go...

Kind of wish Buffalo Bore would not label some of their ammo "anti-personnel".
Some of those would be perfect for home defense, but don't think the Kalifornia courts would look favorably on ammo used that was termed "anti-personnel" even if it was used for self-defense...

Regards,
Mike
 
Here's my take on why there is limited demand and therefor limited production of .40 wheelguns. When the .40S&W was developed you had for all practical purposes a large gap in semi's. Fast and light (9mm) vs. slow and heavy (.45.acp). Not much if anything in between. With revolvers though you you have much more ability to move up and down the power and bullet weight spectrums even if stuck with factory loads. Why a .40S&W revolver when we already have tons of loads and options with the .357M, .41M, .44SP, .45C and .44M. Any of which will surpass anything the .40S&W ever thought of. For an idea, even an idea related to a niche, to be successful there has to be that niche. Due to the versatility of revolvers and therefor their ammo there is no niche left in the middle.
 
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