I don't know how well it would work. The OD of the .41 Long Colt case is roughly .408" while the .38 S&W, which is the largest diameter case the J-Frame has ever been chambered for AFAIK, has a base diameter of .3865". I'm thinking that a .41 Long Colt J-Frame would have some awfully thin chamber walls, but then again if the pressure is low enough it might still be OK (I've not been able to find any references as to what pressure the .41 LC operates at).
40S&W semi-auto - why no .40 revolver cartridge?
- Thread starter TheFlash
- Start date
I don't know how well it would work. The OD of the .41 Long Colt case is roughly .408" while the .38 S&W, which is the largest diameter case the J-Frame has ever been chambered for AFAIK, has a base diameter of .3865". I'm thinking that a .41 Long Colt J-Frame would have some awfully thin chamber walls, but then again if the pressure is low enough it might still be OK (I've not been able to find any references as to what pressure the .41 LC operates at).
Bob Wright
New member
Mike Irwin wrote:
I was aware of that date, however, in my baliwick these guns, usually converted Colt New Service revolvers or Single Actions, became popular during the post-War years. There were several hunting clubs in Mississippi near Memphis where the specialty was hunting wild boar, both feral and Russian, using these guns. H.L. Highsmith was one local gunsmith whose converted guns were highly prized.
Bob Wright
I was aware of that date, however, in my baliwick these guns, usually converted Colt New Service revolvers or Single Actions, became popular during the post-War years. There were several hunting clubs in Mississippi near Memphis where the specialty was hunting wild boar, both feral and Russian, using these guns. H.L. Highsmith was one local gunsmith whose converted guns were highly prized.
Bob Wright
darkroommike
New member
Hey, everyone forgot the .41 Special!
I've also read an article or two (sorry no citations) for a wildcat .41 Special, which is a .41 Magnum cased trimmed to the same OAL as the .44 Special. Even Elmer Keith had a good word or two to say about the concept. There is now, apparently, .41SPC brass available with the proper headstamp, probably Starline.
I've also read an article or two (sorry no citations) for a wildcat .41 Special, which is a .41 Magnum cased trimmed to the same OAL as the .44 Special. Even Elmer Keith had a good word or two to say about the concept. There is now, apparently, .41SPC brass available with the proper headstamp, probably Starline.
ohen cepel
New member
I don't think there is a need nor demand for a .40 in a revolver. If it hadn't been for the Florida shootout years ago and the FBI looking to blame ammo for the deaths there the .40S&W wouldn't exist either.
There is something wrong about this data.
.45 ACP has a velocity in the muzzle of about 800 fps with of 230 grains bullets.
.45 Colt (.45 LC) with 255 grains bullets has a velocity in the muzzle with smokless powder of about 800 fps too.
With black powder and balloon head cases the old .45 Colt (.45 LC) had a muzzle velocity of 900 fps with 255 grains bullets.
And a bullet of 255 grains moving at the same velocity than a bullet of 230 grains have to have more energy.
The 10 mm revolvers can shoot .40 S&W too, but they need moon clips too.
I think that one of the reasons that there are not six shoot .40 rimmed revolvers is that they must have the same frame size than a .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .44 Special or .41 Magnum revolvers. So why would somebody need an intermediate caliber in guns of that size.
When .41 Magnum came out in the 60´s there were to different load for the caliber: One with similar velocities than the .44 Magnum for outdoorsmen and another with 200 grains bullet at 950 fps for police work and defense.
Forgive my bad English.
Hi Anibal,
The data sourced for the 45ACP, 45 Colt and 9mm +P was from the MidwayUSA website for each respective load.
I confirmed on the Hornady website that those specs are correct and match Hornady's data for a 5" Test Barrel at the muzzle for velocity and energy.
You mention the 230grain bullet for the 45ACP and the 255gr bullet for the 45 Colt. Those are the 'standard' loads for both of those calibers.
However, keep in mind that most self-defense loads are hollow-point or have some type of 'tip' to them that help expansion. And, so the bullet weight is less than the 'standard' load.
The Hornady Critical defense bullet for both the 45ACP and 45 Colt is 185 grains.
It took a while for me to 'come to grips' with those metrics/figures, especially when I was considering using one of my Ruger revolvers in 45 Colt for home defense.
After seeing the relatively low energy for the 45 Colt (only ~50 ft lbs more than a .38Spl +P load for Hornady Critical Defense!), I decided to stick with my 9mm...
Given everyone's input/feedback about a revolver-specific .40 caliber round, I'm definitely inclined to agree: No Need For It
Regards,
Mike
P.S. And, very valid point about required frame size in a revolver for a .40. Might as well bump it up to .45...
The data sourced for the 45ACP, 45 Colt and 9mm +P was from the MidwayUSA website for each respective load.
I confirmed on the Hornady website that those specs are correct and match Hornady's data for a 5" Test Barrel at the muzzle for velocity and energy.
You mention the 230grain bullet for the 45ACP and the 255gr bullet for the 45 Colt. Those are the 'standard' loads for both of those calibers.
However, keep in mind that most self-defense loads are hollow-point or have some type of 'tip' to them that help expansion. And, so the bullet weight is less than the 'standard' load.
The Hornady Critical defense bullet for both the 45ACP and 45 Colt is 185 grains.
It took a while for me to 'come to grips' with those metrics/figures, especially when I was considering using one of my Ruger revolvers in 45 Colt for home defense.
After seeing the relatively low energy for the 45 Colt (only ~50 ft lbs more than a .38Spl +P load for Hornady Critical Defense!), I decided to stick with my 9mm...
Given everyone's input/feedback about a revolver-specific .40 caliber round, I'm definitely inclined to agree: No Need For It
Regards,
Mike
P.S. And, very valid point about required frame size in a revolver for a .40. Might as well bump it up to .45...
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You're probably right in that there is no "need" for it. But "want" has been a big driver in the firearms industry for, well, I don't know- a long time. I have no need for one, but I would love a S&W 610 chambered in .38-40. I suspect the cylinder may be a tad hsort, but an L frame in that chambering has been on my "want" list for quite a few years.
The onliest reason I can come up with for such a want is to be the only kid on the block with one.
The onliest reason I can come up with for such a want is to be the only kid on the block with one.
Dragline45
New member
Your research is off, the .45 colt is on par with the .44 Magnum. There are alot of powder puff loads for the .45 colt due to cowboy action shooting and just plain old plinking ammo. I dare you to find a .45ACP or 9mm+p that comes close to some heavy .45 colt loads.
Buffalo Bore Heavy .45 Colt +P - 325 gr. (1,325fps/M.E.1,267 ft.lbs.)
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=38
Just a note these are not recommended for the new smaller framed New Vaqueros. But I think its pretty clear that .45acp and 9mm cant even touch certain .45 Colt loads.
Dragline45,
You chose the 'corner-case' load type that proves your point.
Of course the Buffalo Bore load is a maxed-out load (major +P load) for the 45Colt that would likely destroy some of the 'lesser' 45Colt revolvers out there.
And, is that something you really would use for 'home defense'??? If you missed, it would probably go through 5 houses before stopping! (Kidding on that, but it may not be far from reality)
If you look at the 'standard' defense loads by Speer, CCI, Hornady, etc. for the 45Colt, you will see that the 45Colt does come in lower than the 45ACP and 9mm+P. (Wish that were not the case...)
Regards,
Mike
You chose the 'corner-case' load type that proves your point.
Of course the Buffalo Bore load is a maxed-out load (major +P load) for the 45Colt that would likely destroy some of the 'lesser' 45Colt revolvers out there.
And, is that something you really would use for 'home defense'??? If you missed, it would probably go through 5 houses before stopping! (Kidding on that, but it may not be far from reality)
If you look at the 'standard' defense loads by Speer, CCI, Hornady, etc. for the 45Colt, you will see that the 45Colt does come in lower than the 45ACP and 9mm+P. (Wish that were not the case...)
Regards,
Mike
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Not at all... it combines the energy/power/capability of 45acp with nearly the same capacity of a 9mm, and it all fits into 9mm-sized pistols.
I think its a great combination of the best attributes from 9mm & 45acp.
The semi-auto crowd often cries about 40's recoil and follow-up speeds... something I figure you revolver guys laugh about.
carguychris
New member
IIRC if you compare original military loadings, .45ACP had slightly lower muzzle energy than .45 Colt; it was supposedly intended to perfectly duplicate .45 Colt ballistics, but came up slightly short.
This issue is complicated because the .45ACP has decades of SD/HD/LE load development behind it, but prior to (let's face it) the recent introduction of the Taurus Judge, most major ammo companies had been virtually ignoring standard-pressure .45 Colt SD/HD load development for decades because the market was tiny by comparison.
In standard pressure, .45 Colt should outperform .45ACP, but not by a whopping margin. OTOH I consider the +P and "Ruger Only" loads to be virtually a whole different cartridge.
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Stephanie B
New member
I'd think that a 5-shot .41 Special would be a heck of a self-defense gun. But I can see the ammo companies being worried about some nimrod loading up a 19th Century revolver with the cartridges and having Bad Things Happen.
Dragline45
New member
Exactly, and I did prove my point. You said .45 Colt is underpowered and .45ACP, .40, and 9mm+p are better performers. Of course they are when you compare them to powder puff .45 Colt rounds. I may have posted one of the most powerful factory .45 Colt loads out there, but that doesn't mean that's the only choice you have for a more powerful round than the standard pressure rounds offered by Hornandy and etc... They have much milder .45 Colt rounds that still are leaps and bounds over .45ACP... Point is, .45ACP, 9mm, and .40 cant even touch the .45 Colt round when loaded up, even in the non +P rounds it still out performs them.
The point isn't if I would use those heavy +P loads for home defense, the point is the .45 Colt far surpasses the .45 ACP.
That may be the case but it tells you nothing about the potential of the cartridge as a whole.
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Dragline45,
Yes, you made your point that specifically for the POTENTIAL of a cartridge - the 45 Colt vs. the 45ACP, 9mm, etc., the 45 Colt certainly does have more potential.
This means with case capacity and versatility, you can load up (or down) the 45 Colt to a wider range of power charges, bullet weights, etc. than the 45ACP and 9mm. (Of course, that the 45 Colt is used in revolvers where bullet shape and semi-auto function and feeding is not a consideration helps quite a bit, too.)
My comments regarding the 45 Colt being underpowered vs. the 45ACP and the 9mm+P was on the basis of comparable manufacturer and application. Not the extreme ‘super-loads’ nor ‘powder puff’ loads.
(e.g. The Hornady Critical Defense rounds which is what many would be using as a good starting point for comparing ‘stopping power’ and cartridge capability.)
I was comparing cartridges from a specific product offering perspective (defense loads from Speer, CCI, Hornady, etc.) and application (home defense).
That comparison does cover the majority of ‘practical’ loadings that would be used for the 45 Colt vs. the other cartridges.
And, as I noted before, I am definitely a 45 Colt cartridge enthusiast and regularly shoot 3 revolvers with various 45 Colt loads (and not just ‘powder puff’ loads either)…
-Mike
P.S. To Stephanie's point - a 5-shot .41 Special revolver would be an interesting defense weapon. Would be interesting to see how it compares with .38Spl and .44Spl...
Yes, you made your point that specifically for the POTENTIAL of a cartridge - the 45 Colt vs. the 45ACP, 9mm, etc., the 45 Colt certainly does have more potential.
This means with case capacity and versatility, you can load up (or down) the 45 Colt to a wider range of power charges, bullet weights, etc. than the 45ACP and 9mm. (Of course, that the 45 Colt is used in revolvers where bullet shape and semi-auto function and feeding is not a consideration helps quite a bit, too.)
My comments regarding the 45 Colt being underpowered vs. the 45ACP and the 9mm+P was on the basis of comparable manufacturer and application. Not the extreme ‘super-loads’ nor ‘powder puff’ loads.
(e.g. The Hornady Critical Defense rounds which is what many would be using as a good starting point for comparing ‘stopping power’ and cartridge capability.)
I was comparing cartridges from a specific product offering perspective (defense loads from Speer, CCI, Hornady, etc.) and application (home defense).
That comparison does cover the majority of ‘practical’ loadings that would be used for the 45 Colt vs. the other cartridges.
And, as I noted before, I am definitely a 45 Colt cartridge enthusiast and regularly shoot 3 revolvers with various 45 Colt loads (and not just ‘powder puff’ loads either)…
-Mike
P.S. To Stephanie's point - a 5-shot .41 Special revolver would be an interesting defense weapon. Would be interesting to see how it compares with .38Spl and .44Spl...
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Wow. Lots of posts...
The .41 mag was the original solution, but it's so powerful, that it needs a large N-frame. Size, weight, and capacity is the same for a .41 mag as a .44 (Ok, .429) or .45. Most people just stuck to the larger guns.
If a mid-sized revolver, weighing about 32-35 ounces had been developed that fired six, .40 caliber projectiles at roughly .40 S&W ballistics and backed up a large maker, then, it would have been hit...back in the 60s or 70s.
There isn't much market for duty sized revolvers nowadays.
You'll find smaller, 5 shot guns in .44 special and Charter Arms has a 20 ounce, .40 S&W revolver with no moonclips, but can't really us a speedloader, though.
The .41 mag was the original solution, but it's so powerful, that it needs a large N-frame. Size, weight, and capacity is the same for a .41 mag as a .44 (Ok, .429) or .45. Most people just stuck to the larger guns.
If a mid-sized revolver, weighing about 32-35 ounces had been developed that fired six, .40 caliber projectiles at roughly .40 S&W ballistics and backed up a large maker, then, it would have been hit...back in the 60s or 70s.
There isn't much market for duty sized revolvers nowadays.
You'll find smaller, 5 shot guns in .44 special and Charter Arms has a 20 ounce, .40 S&W revolver with no moonclips, but can't really us a speedloader, though.
The old .38 WCF or .38/40 was a .40 cal. It was originally developed by Winchester in the 1880's(I think) for use in their rifles and Colt chambered their SAA for it. Some thought it "hit harder" than the .45 and .44 cals...Whatever that meant. I believe Colt also made some of their DA New Service revolvers chambered in .38/40 but it eventually it withered away until the cowboy shooting games came into being. The .38/40 is also a bottleneck round...The .41 mag has already been covered. It was over shadowed by the .44 mag and .357 mag...