.40 S&W Prediction
- Thread starter UncleEd
- Start date
I've made the claim several times that the .40 and 10mm aren't that different. Factory load of Longshot in a .40 in a Glock 35 (5.3") will hover around 1250 fps with a 180gr, if you work up slowly it's not hard to get around 1300 fps (a 6" will only give more fps). I've loaded a LOT of .40 and 10mm and yes the 10mm does have a little bit of a velocity edge simply because it can hold a little more powder, but that's its only advantage.
However the .40 case is stronger and overall more efficient (ex. 6.5gr of Unique will give 1240 fps from a 6" .40 S&W with 180gr, below book max and it comes out almost 95 ft-lbs per 1.0gr of powder. That's a stout but safe load that doesn't eat much powder. The 10mm could do that too, but it'll eat more powder to match the .40's velocity.) The general overall mistake most make when comparing the .40 and the 10mm is that they've come to accept that HOT 10mm is somehow no longer hot but rather normal whereas in their mind the .40 will never be anything more than a 180gr @ 1000 fps cartridge, both being incorrect.
Also most published load data gives the 10mm two advantages over the .40, one is a longer barrel (usually 5" for 10mm and 4" for .40) and they load the 10mm to higher pressure almost always, which isn't fair since it's not stronger than the .40. I've made the claim that if you were to load them both to the same pressure (as close as possible at least) and use the same barrel length (and bullet of course) that in many cases the 10mm would only show about a 75-100 fps advantage, if that.
I've never claimed the .40 is more powerful overall than the 10mm is, but it has its advantages over it for sure. I don't think there's anything living that would know the difference between a 10mm and a .40 S&W. The way the 10mm crowd thinks it's a wonder they're not selling their 10mm's to buy .40 Supers, after all it's more powerful than the 10mm. However I'm sure they might agree with me when I say that despite more "power" the .40 Super probably really isn't going to kill anything that the 10mm can't.
Likewise, what is the 10mm going to kill that the .40 S&W can't? If you keep the comparison at least somewhat fair, there is no real discernible difference in the ability of either one.
However the .40 case is stronger and overall more efficient (ex. 6.5gr of Unique will give 1240 fps from a 6" .40 S&W with 180gr, below book max and it comes out almost 95 ft-lbs per 1.0gr of powder. That's a stout but safe load that doesn't eat much powder. The 10mm could do that too, but it'll eat more powder to match the .40's velocity.) The general overall mistake most make when comparing the .40 and the 10mm is that they've come to accept that HOT 10mm is somehow no longer hot but rather normal whereas in their mind the .40 will never be anything more than a 180gr @ 1000 fps cartridge, both being incorrect.
Also most published load data gives the 10mm two advantages over the .40, one is a longer barrel (usually 5" for 10mm and 4" for .40) and they load the 10mm to higher pressure almost always, which isn't fair since it's not stronger than the .40. I've made the claim that if you were to load them both to the same pressure (as close as possible at least) and use the same barrel length (and bullet of course) that in many cases the 10mm would only show about a 75-100 fps advantage, if that.
I've never claimed the .40 is more powerful overall than the 10mm is, but it has its advantages over it for sure. I don't think there's anything living that would know the difference between a 10mm and a .40 S&W. The way the 10mm crowd thinks it's a wonder they're not selling their 10mm's to buy .40 Supers, after all it's more powerful than the 10mm. However I'm sure they might agree with me when I say that despite more "power" the .40 Super probably really isn't going to kill anything that the 10mm can't.
Likewise, what is the 10mm going to kill that the .40 S&W can't? If you keep the comparison at least somewhat fair, there is no real discernible difference in the ability of either one.
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If I could find 40 super ammo on the shelf, my 10mm would go today.
Yes, the 40 can kill. So can the 38 special. Shall we say those two are equal because they are both lethal?
You cannot compare watered down 10mm ammo to the 40 and say "see? See? They're equal!" THAT is not fair. The 40 will never be in the same club as the 10. Regardless of how you load it.
Yes, the 40 can kill. So can the 38 special. Shall we say those two are equal because they are both lethal?
You cannot compare watered down 10mm ammo to the 40 and say "see? See? They're equal!" THAT is not fair. The 40 will never be in the same club as the 10. Regardless of how you load it.
I think the point that some folks unfamiliar with the nitty gritty of these two cartridges should walk away from this with is:
if you think the .40 S&W is to the 10mm much like what the .38 Special is to .357 Magnum
...then you aren't getting it and you likely won't ever get it.
They are so, SO much more closely matched than that. But there is another point worth mentioning if you guys wish to keep debating this...
1) if you aren't a handloader, there's a very good chance that you'll never truly understand the relationship these two rounds have with each other
2) if you ARE a handloader, you're asking for a futile battle getting sucked in to some of these discussions because it's not rational or fair to use examples of what "CAN" be done at the load bench, especially if you're doing a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g that goes even a hair's width beyond SAAMI spec in any facet of the load. Be that pressure or COAL. You have to understand, acknowledge and accept that the moment you take .40 S&W beyond 35k PSI or you seat a bullet forward of SAAMI spec COAL, you are simply no longer talking about .40 S&W. You aren't. No matter how you've convinced yourself. It's some OTHER round.
It's like Buffalo Bore's stupid .380 Auto+P, it's a round that doesn't exist and meets no standard. I could eclipse Buffalo Bore's .380 Auto+P if I tinkered enough, but we all have to agree that I'm going to wreck some pistols in the process because it's not a .380 anymore.
if you think the .40 S&W is to the 10mm much like what the .38 Special is to .357 Magnum
...then you aren't getting it and you likely won't ever get it.
They are so, SO much more closely matched than that. But there is another point worth mentioning if you guys wish to keep debating this...
1) if you aren't a handloader, there's a very good chance that you'll never truly understand the relationship these two rounds have with each other
2) if you ARE a handloader, you're asking for a futile battle getting sucked in to some of these discussions because it's not rational or fair to use examples of what "CAN" be done at the load bench, especially if you're doing a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g that goes even a hair's width beyond SAAMI spec in any facet of the load. Be that pressure or COAL. You have to understand, acknowledge and accept that the moment you take .40 S&W beyond 35k PSI or you seat a bullet forward of SAAMI spec COAL, you are simply no longer talking about .40 S&W. You aren't. No matter how you've convinced yourself. It's some OTHER round.
It's like Buffalo Bore's stupid .380 Auto+P, it's a round that doesn't exist and meets no standard. I could eclipse Buffalo Bore's .380 Auto+P if I tinkered enough, but we all have to agree that I'm going to wreck some pistols in the process because it's not a .380 anymore.
Looking at it from the perspective of a firearms instructor who has carried 9's, .40's & .45's, and has seen those 3 major calibers carried by lots of guys & gals ...
I'd be inclined to suspect both the 9 & .40 will continue to run pretty much back and forth as the "dominant" service caliber choices for years to come.
I expect .45 ACP to continue following at a distance in "second place" ... with the .357SIG being an even more distant "3rd" ... and the .45GAP struggling to remain on the page.
Now, as far as the private citizen non-LE/Gov market is concerned? Who knows?
The gun companies will continue to track commercial sales, as well as the reported production & sales of the major ammo companies, and adjust their production accordingly.
I'd be inclined to suspect both the 9 & .40 will continue to run pretty much back and forth as the "dominant" service caliber choices for years to come.
I expect .45 ACP to continue following at a distance in "second place" ... with the .357SIG being an even more distant "3rd" ... and the .45GAP struggling to remain on the page.
Now, as far as the private citizen non-LE/Gov market is concerned? Who knows?
The gun companies will continue to track commercial sales, as well as the reported production & sales of the major ammo companies, and adjust their production accordingly.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Here's a nice analysis of some of the problems that Glock had with the 40 in some models.
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13852-40-S-amp-W-and-Glocks
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13852-40-S-amp-W-and-Glocks
Nakanokalronin
New member
Lots of people like the .40S&W round. My experience however is that there are more used .40S&W handguns in the cases at my LGS and the ammo is always available on the shelf during a panic. I've noticed this over the past 15 years so it's never seemed as popular as 9mm and 45acp.
LockedBreech
New member
That's one of my favorite features of the round. Thanks to being slightly less popular than 9mm, during panics I can just shoot my forties more
Crankgrinder
New member
Picking a new g23 gen 4 come Saturday. Lots of people love theirs so maybe ill love mine. If not then it may go towards a government model. I do indeed love my 1911.