.40 S&W Prediction

It was always a compromise round, to help bring together fans of capacity and fans of bullet mass.
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This was not why it was adopted wholeheartedly by law enforcement. The FBI adopted it in the early 1990s because it met their parameters for a defensive round. It's adoption happened to coincide with the ongoing transition from revolvers to semis in law enforcement. Up to that point 9mm had been the go to round for leos, much more so than 45acp.

Within a decade, or less, it became the most widely used ammo in law enforcement in the U.S. At no time in the past or since has any round risen to such popularity in the U.S. so rapidly. It eclipsed the 9mm and the 45 among leos.

It is one of the top 3 most popular semi-auto rounds in the U.S. (not counting the .22) It's not going to slip below that in our lifetimes.

tipoc
 
So higher capacity combined with bullet mass is a bad thing? ;) Call it what you want, it can deliver over 500lbs of energy from a standard size pistol, with standard loads, not +P or +P+ weapon stressing loads.
 
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40 operates at the same as 9mm and 10mm is 2500psi higher. Sounds reasonable to me.

Like I said, the 9mm casing is better suited for 35,000psi than the 40sw. 10mm isn't exactly safe either.....
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There's a guy on this forum who claims that .40 can be loaded to within 100fps of 10mm, because the .40 case is so strong?
 
The .40 S&W has an inherently stronger cartridge case simply due to the decision to give it a small pistol primer rather than the large primer that the 10mm uses. It does not however have as much case capacity as the 10mm.

If you're sticking to SAAMI spec dimensions and pressure limits, the 10mm will stay safely above the .40 S&W in velocity with same weight slugs, but don't anyone go thinking that .40 is to 10mm what .38 Special is to .357 Magnum, because it's nothing like that whatsoever. It's much, much closer.

If you were to take a 10mm revolver platform, use a heavy bullet and seat a bullet further out of the .40 S&W brass to equal the COAL of a 10mm round (such that you had equal internal combustion space between them) then indeed, you can push the .40 brass harder before failure. However... the round would be dimensionally outside SAAMI spec at that point and thus by definition, it would no longer be .40 S&W.

There is no doubt that you can push .40 S&W to be very close to 10mm, but before you ask that question, you pretty much need to define WHAT 10mm you're talking about. If you're talking about the true limits of 10mm then it's a bit tougher to get near it. If you're talking about 75% of the 10mm ammo available on the market then yeah, it's not tough to catch it. Factory 10mm ammo is very much like factory .38 Super ammo. There is it's spec/potential, and then there is a lot of what is actually made and sold, which runs well under in performance.
 
Plenty of local and federal gov. agencies. That's common knowledge.
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I know who uses .40, the post said
reputation among a lot of groups who depend on a sidearm for protection in hazardous work environments
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What experience have these groups had with the .40 that give it a great reputation, and how they tested and came to the conclusion that it performed better than other calibers available. Its easy to post statements as if they are facts, I just like to see some evidence to back up these type of statements. I just think if it has that good a reputation, why are police forces and the FBI changing and thinking of changing to 9MM.
 
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Among training and police professionals, it is the common opinion that there is really no significant difference among quality 9s, 40s and 45s in efficacy. Heard presentations and followed expert discussions.

The debate centers on:

1. Easy of shooting
2. Capacity
3. Gun size - of course, you can share equally sized platforms but have different firing profiles.
4. Wear and tear on guns.

Unless someone can come up referenced opinion that one is better than the other outside of cliches - let's skip that level of anecdotal argument.

Saying that the 428 Magnoom has served the Crabcake Ville swat team well is not convincing.
 
Why do law enforcement use +P or +P+ 9mm? Why even bother with higher pressure/velocity 9mm if 9, 40, 45 are essentially the same as far as effectiveness? The 40 is chosen for the exact same reason people choose 9mm+P/+P+, more performance. And higher than normal pressure ammo will accelerate wear on any firearm.
 
1. Easy of shooting
2. Capacity
3. Gun size - of course, you can share equally sized platforms but have different firing profiles.
4. Wear and tear on guns.
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I would agree, the effectiveness of a particular calibers is not just its ft/lbs or one is a millimeter larger than the other. Its a balance of different things. Acceptable accuracy, low recoil , etc, if it was just down to so called stopping power Armies and police forces around the world would still be using 7.62 MM instead of 5.56 MM ammo.

Why do law enforcement use +P or +P+ 9mm?
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What types and makes of 9MM ammo do polices forces use. ?
 
From Manta:

What experience have these groups had with the .40 that give it a great reputation, and how they tested and came to the conclusion that it performed better than other calibers available. Its easy to post statements as if they are facts, I just like to see some evidence to back up these type of statements. I just think if it has that good a reputation, why are police forces and the FBI changing and thinking of changing to 9MM.
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What is your source for the information that a change is taking place on a significant scale, other than anecdotal?

It is the case that in the early 1990s the FBI testing did lead them to settle on the 40S&W as the round they would go to. It met their performance criteria as well or better than other rounds for penetration, it had higher capacity than the 45acp and fit into guns the same size as the 9mm. They also decided that the 180 gr. round was acceptable in terms of recoil and the ability of a wide range of agents to handle. These were factors and others in their choice. I believe that the went with the Glock and began with that in 1994, IIRC.

They did not claim that it performed better than other rounds in terms of "stopping power", etc. just that it met their criteria for penetration and expansion. The 45 acp did as well. They chose first the 10mm then the 40 S&W which met their parameters for performance.

Bullet performance across the board has improved a great deal since then.

So for 20 years in the U.S. the 40 S&W has been widely used in law enforcement. It has worked well for many departments and they have re-upped it a good many times. Only a year or so ago the DHS ordered a few million rounds for it's various sub agencies. This did not indicate widespread dissatisfaction.

To suggest that the 40S&W is not a useful round for self defense or, with the right load and bullet, small game, stretches incredulity and seems a rather odd thing to do.

tipoc
 
JD0x0 said:
That load has roughly 528ft-lbs muzzle energy. Full powered 10mm Auto runs roughly 730-775ft-lbs from a comparable barrel length.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=114
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I handload 10mm, and 40s&w. Very familiar with the numbers, and the 10mm is one, if not, my favorite calibers. Pushing max velocity per powder manufacturer the velocity difference is about 150 fps. I haven't looked at the numbers in a while so I'm going to be off on that number give or take. I don't think a 180gr at 1149fps is anything weak at all. Consider that velocity is based on a 4" barrel, pushing same load in a 5 " should have you right at or around 1200 fps in a 40s&w. Not so short and weak after all. That's all I'm saying.
 
9mm has become more and more popular due to newer bullet designs(and hotter loadings) and im sure people will up on it more and more especially with new shooters and people wanting very small pistols, but im also sure many of those same people will think more and more about .40 when they figure out that Winchester ranger "T" and gold dots and gold sabres cant be found as readily as equal or greater loads in .40 and when they do they pay very close to the same price. I know I did, and now ill try a 40 real soon. Who knows, I might like it, if not, ill sell it and maybe just stick with 1911 from now on.
 
the OP with his first post made statements that have no factual basis as to the decline of the .40 pistol and adoption of 9mm by the FBI or PD's. Most used pistols listed as trade in's were probably (I have only my experience for this statement) traded on new .40's, I was responsible for such purchases at my dept. and upgrades have been done through the years but in the same 40 S&W caliber. No matter which way an organization moves with regard to issue weapons there will be six pages of opinion suggesting the replacement should be with just about every caliber known to man.
My personal choice would be a 9mm over 40 or .45 for a police duty pistol, my choice of these calibers for my individual shooting would put .45 first and 9mm then 40 S&W.
 
And do you compare the original Norma numbers, or recent boutique ammo?
I find it hard to believe that there is factory 10mm ammo that will drive a 200gr bullet at over 1250 from a 4" barrel, but is there factory ammo that will drive that same bullet at 1150 from a 4" .40?
When both rounds run at about the same pressure, with the 10mm actually having a small advantage, I don't see how it's possible?
 
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