.38 spl for self defence? man shot 5 times in face lives
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Microgunner
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A friend of mine shot a home intruder once in the chest with .38spl. standard pressure from a 2" barrel and the intruder turned and dropped dead on the spot.
He didn't even hardly bleed.
Shot placement is everything.
He didn't even hardly bleed.
Shot placement is everything.
Skadoosh: said:
Yes, it's not what you hit with, but rather what you hit. Immediate incapacitation requires a hit to the CNS or a vascular structure that will produce a precipitous drop in blood pressure that results in unconsciousness.
Unfortunately, there are those who'll always be looking for a bullet that produces that mythical "100% one-shot-stop" regardless of what part of the human body it hits. Ammunition design can never compensate for ammunition placement.
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seeker_two
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Media has given us little to go on here....esp. on what type of ammo was used. I'll bet she was using cheap range ammo....probably 130gr. FMJ. This is why, even when I buy range ammo, I try to buy something effective enough to use for SD in a pinch....158gr SWC or inexpensive "white box" HP's.
I wonder what would have happened had she been using a Judge or Governor with 000 buckshot loads instead. The wound patterns would have been.....interesting, to say the least....
I wonder what would have happened had she been using a Judge or Governor with 000 buckshot loads instead. The wound patterns would have been.....interesting, to say the least....
TheDoubleDeuce
New member
Hickok45 did a little shooting with the Judge. At 3 to 7 yards it was putting massive holes where all three copper discs out of the Winchester PDX ammo were creating very tight, powerful groups. I highly doubt the perpetrator would have survived!
Angel Alvarez, 23, survived getting shot once by his friend and 20 more times by New York City police. Ain't the gun or the bullet but where the bullet goes.
By the way that was the same shootout where police hit 6 bystanders.
http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/man-survives-after-being-shot-21-times-in-gunfight.231689/
By the way that was the same shootout where police hit 6 bystanders.
http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/man-survives-after-being-shot-21-times-in-gunfight.231689/
therealdeal
New member
there are vast differences in ammo and many don't know this
though what you are stating is correct, it doesn't change the fact that ammo does play a huge factor in hunting, self-defense, home-defense, accuracy with distance shooting, etc.
the law has always been something to the effect that you are firing a deadly weapon whether you are shooting birdshot or 00buck. I choose to always give careful consideration to the ammo I shoot with. I want the most out of an emergency situation since I have been made to make the decision to draw.
though what you are stating is correct, it doesn't change the fact that ammo does play a huge factor in hunting, self-defense, home-defense, accuracy with distance shooting, etc.
the law has always been something to the effect that you are firing a deadly weapon whether you are shooting birdshot or 00buck. I choose to always give careful consideration to the ammo I shoot with. I want the most out of an emergency situation since I have been made to make the decision to draw.
Skadoosh and 481 you are missing my point.
It is just as much luck than skill where bullets land. A (gun) fight is dynamic, it is not static. I have seen people shot and killed and wounded with many common calibers. Low power rounds do unpredictable things in people. I went to one shooting and the guy answered the door with a 380 bullet stuck in his forehead, I have also seen major bones shattered by 380's.
When you get into the Hot 9mm's and the magnums they are MUCH more predictable. Lots of cops have been killed by 25 ACP's, it happens.
In the case of our mommy, (according to media reports) she shot him through both lungs, the liver, the face and he STILL drove away after she bluffed him into thinking she had more rounds available and escaped. How much better shot placement do you want? If the bullet lacks the power to disrupt the CNS ie; penetrate the skull or lacks the power to do enough tissue damage to achieve "rapid blood pressure loss" then you are out of luck.
There have been documented failures with every caliber. That is why I carry the most powerful gun I can shoot well and conceal. It may not be much, but I will take any advantage I can get, no matter how slight.
It is just as much luck than skill where bullets land. A (gun) fight is dynamic, it is not static. I have seen people shot and killed and wounded with many common calibers. Low power rounds do unpredictable things in people. I went to one shooting and the guy answered the door with a 380 bullet stuck in his forehead, I have also seen major bones shattered by 380's.
When you get into the Hot 9mm's and the magnums they are MUCH more predictable. Lots of cops have been killed by 25 ACP's, it happens.
In the case of our mommy, (according to media reports) she shot him through both lungs, the liver, the face and he STILL drove away after she bluffed him into thinking she had more rounds available and escaped. How much better shot placement do you want? If the bullet lacks the power to disrupt the CNS ie; penetrate the skull or lacks the power to do enough tissue damage to achieve "rapid blood pressure loss" then you are out of luck.
There have been documented failures with every caliber. That is why I carry the most powerful gun I can shoot well and conceal. It may not be much, but I will take any advantage I can get, no matter how slight.
Glenn E. Meyer
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It isn't true that much of the brain isn't used. That is an old myth from the early days of localization that lacked the techniques we have today. It's active all over its structures.
However, the structures can be very specialized and unless you disable ones that directly deal with life support as in the hindbrain, you can survive but lose specific functions. You can compensate for some but some leave permanent disabilities.
Damage to the cerebral cortex can be survived - the classic case of Phineas Gage shows someone who took a shot in the head far surpassing a gun round and survived but with severe personality changes.
Children can have an entire hemisphere removed and survive and have fairly normal language.
So a shot to the brain is like saying a shot to the torso - if it doesn't take out a vital function, you still can be in the fight or carry out actions if you don't quit.
However, the structures can be very specialized and unless you disable ones that directly deal with life support as in the hindbrain, you can survive but lose specific functions. You can compensate for some but some leave permanent disabilities.
Damage to the cerebral cortex can be survived - the classic case of Phineas Gage shows someone who took a shot in the head far surpassing a gun round and survived but with severe personality changes.
Children can have an entire hemisphere removed and survive and have fairly normal language.
So a shot to the brain is like saying a shot to the torso - if it doesn't take out a vital function, you still can be in the fight or carry out actions if you don't quit.
therealdeal: said:
I never said that ammo choice doesn't play a part, but ammo construction is not the only factor effecting the outcome of defensive shootings. I simply said that there are folks out there who seem to think that they can compensate for poor shot placement by loading the newest "whiz-bang" design in their magazines. We've seen a little of that in this thread (whether those who've done it wish to admit it or not) and elsewhere on these forums when others quote as truthful and/or valid the thoroughly debunked "works" of Marshall & Sanow- yes, there are folks who still subscribe to this day to such nonsense.
therealdeal: said:
I would hope so. I prefer to take advantage of every benefit that I can get, too, no matter how small it may seem.
FYI:
If anyone thinks the Taurus Judge is a good self-defense weapon with anything but .45LC, they need to read this:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41_3.htm
There is also a 2nd review he did with one of the longer-barreled Judges (performed far better). The buckshot out of the Judge does not penetrate nearly far enough (due to the short barrel and lack of velocity). And those PDX-1 defense loads aren't going to do any better. The buck flattens-out too much, as well.
Go with the .45LC in your gun if you want to use a Judge for SD.
If anyone thinks the Taurus Judge is a good self-defense weapon with anything but .45LC, they need to read this:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41_3.htm
There is also a 2nd review he did with one of the longer-barreled Judges (performed far better). The buckshot out of the Judge does not penetrate nearly far enough (due to the short barrel and lack of velocity). And those PDX-1 defense loads aren't going to do any better. The buck flattens-out too much, as well.
Go with the .45LC in your gun if you want to use a Judge for SD.
TheDoubleDeuce
New member
Your post piqued my curiosity, so I checked out the second review you mentioned:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot53_2.htm
The 000 buck, 00 buck and slugs all reached the 12" mark.. Sure, it wasn't always 100% of the projectiles penetrating twelve inches, but I don't think 45LC is the ONLY viable round. A group of 00 buck in the face sounds like it would be pretty devastating. Just my .02
I have worked In the operating room In the military and part time in civilian trauma centers and from what I have seen this statement hits the nail on the head.
One of the most interesting I saw was a teen who was trying to take a "funny" picture with a .22 pistol in his nose and shot himself. The bullet ended up stopping at the inside of the top of his skull and until he went in for surgery he was talking.
No, Nanuk, I am not missing your point. As you said yourself, there are documented failures for every caliber. Failures to hit a critically vital spot of the target's anatomy is the point. I know that my 38spl will be effective if I do my part, gunfight dynamics and all, to ensure proper bullet placement.
To TheDoubleDeuce:
The 000 did not reach the 12 inch mark. They were estimated at 9 to 12 inches. With the 00 buck, only one of 5 pellets from the Judge made it to the 12 to 15 inch mark. All others were stopped in earlier jugs.
Don't mix up the Judge results with the long shotgun barrel:
The 000 did not reach the 12 inch mark. They were estimated at 9 to 12 inches. With the 00 buck, only one of 5 pellets from the Judge made it to the 12 to 15 inch mark. All others were stopped in earlier jugs.
Don't mix up the Judge results with the long shotgun barrel:
L_Killkenny
New member
Anyone who's ever read what anything I've written knows I don't think it takes a howitzer to "stop" a threat. As a matter of fact when it comes to the animal world I think most of us are pretty much wuss's. It's our minds that get in the way. But you'll see I high-lighted a portion of your statement which for all practical purposes is bunk. Where you hit is not "a lot" more important than what you hit with. Yes, the old adage a hit with a .22lr is better than a miss with a .44 is true. But a hit with a .44 trumps a hit with a .22 every time (location being the same). Same for a bullet of proper constuction for the job at hand vs. the wrong choice. I don't care if it's the arm, the belly, the head or the heart what you hit with does count. If it didn't I'd be deer and coyote hunting with a .22.
peacefulgary
New member
Maybe so, but I don't care if my assailant dies or not....I want my assailant to be STOPPED ASAP.
It does me no good for me to shoot my attacker with a .25 auto, and then my attacker beat me to death with a baseball bat, and die two hours later in the local ER.
Don't let anyone try to tell you that the .22 or .25 from a handgun are good "man stoppers".
They're not!
I watched the initial reports on some local channel and the anchorman called the gun a 36 caliber. The on site reporter referred to it as a 38. Someone on this thread said it could even have been a .380.
I have seen a number of threads and articles about what knife or gun to get for the "little woman". I don't think if I refereed to one of my female friends as a "little woman", I'd want her to have access to a weapon of any kind for a few hours. At any rate most of these discussions tend to come to the conclusion that a woman should have something with no recoil and preferably in pink.
I'm guessing whatever the caliber, the husband opted for the easiest (read low recoil) for his wife. This unfortunately would probably also be the weakest version.
The sheriff said that "She reportedly fired all six rounds, missing only once. The other shots hit Slater about the face and neck." About the face and neck can mean anything including the ear and shoulder. This is different than five shots to the face.
At any rate this has caused me to rethink my carry gun when my state issues CCWs.
I have seen a number of threads and articles about what knife or gun to get for the "little woman". I don't think if I refereed to one of my female friends as a "little woman", I'd want her to have access to a weapon of any kind for a few hours. At any rate most of these discussions tend to come to the conclusion that a woman should have something with no recoil and preferably in pink.
I'm guessing whatever the caliber, the husband opted for the easiest (read low recoil) for his wife. This unfortunately would probably also be the weakest version.
The sheriff said that "She reportedly fired all six rounds, missing only once. The other shots hit Slater about the face and neck." About the face and neck can mean anything including the ear and shoulder. This is different than five shots to the face.
At any rate this has caused me to rethink my carry gun when my state issues CCWs.
Stephanie B
New member
Probably whichever is closest.
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