38 special

[44 AMP]

I cannot figure out why the 38 was reduced in power after the 1970s.

I have theories, but no proof. Lawyers do figure in, but not directly. I think its a result of the new "more accurate" way pressure is being measured, and the discovery that in many cases the pressure read using "modern"methods is higher than what it was thought to have been. Where the lawyers come in is in the decision to stick with the old system's pressure NUMBERS as the pressure limits.

For example if the old limit was 17,5k and new measurement shows that load to actually be 19K new ammo is loaded to show 17.5k under the new measurement system.

This might not actually be what's going on, but I think it might be, though I have no proof.

I also think the reason why the .357 was reduced to what it is today, its so it could be used out of small frame guns without beating them to death immediately. I could be wrong about that, too, but it fits the reality...

 

[Dufus]

I also think the reason why the .357 was reduced to what it is today, its so it could be used out of small frame guns without beating them to death immediately. I could be wrong about that, too, but it fits the reality...

I think Mr Smith and Mr Wesson had something to do with lowering the pressure standards for the 357 Mag due to the beating their guns took from the higher standards.

AND, I think the same reasons effected the 44 Mag. Look how many M29s were shot loose back in the days. I had 2 of the Dirty Harry's and they both suffered.

I have a newer one now and it has never been fired.

 

[tipoc]

There used to be a good deal of debate about the reduced power of the .357 about 20 years ago. It kinda petered out. There are a few versions but the basic truth is this...

In the 1970s all the major manufacturers offered a variety of .357 loads with bullets of different weights and designs. Reloading manuals also offered loads. The .357 Mag was likely more popular that at any time before or since.

But a scandal was emerging. Seems handgunners began to ask why some companies were getting 100-200 fps from particular loads while other companies were getting less, same bullets and similar powders. Same with the reloading manuals.

Turned out that some companies were testing the rounds in 8 3/8" unvented test barrels. This resulted in 158 gr. bullets at 1700 fps etc. While others used vented test barrels at shorter lengths. Making it appear that their ammo was less powerful and slower. This got fought out till SAMMI sorted it out by getting an agreement that a standard length for barrels for testing and publishing results in catalogs should be used and the barrels should be vented. The result was a more level playing field and many thought the ammo had been weakened.

There's more to that story but that's the heart of it.

tipoc

 

[stinkeypete]

Ratshooter- thanks for the advice to “google ‘shooting with Hobie .38”. I took the first hit and it’s an excellent read.

Everyone should read Hobie’s blog post.

I got confused and posted on the “9mm revolver” thread but in a nutshell:

I have reloading manuals dating back to 1953.

With the provision “don’t put max loads in weak framed guns”
For the same common cast bullet (158) the max powder load for bullseye went
1953 : 4.6
2000: 3.6
2018: 3.5

That’s a 24% reduction in Go-Dust.

Why? That’s a matter of speculation and possibly all here have some merit.

I suspect that even a weak modern .38 will pass through an evil nazi zombie before its started to get squishy, so there is little point to having more energetic projectiles.

Super interesting, though. Makes me glad to be a hand loader because mumble mumble stuff we can’t talk about.

 

[David R]

I think the field has been leveled a little.

38 special Data

I have the speer #8 manual. 1970. Here are a few loads. Test gun is a 6" K38.
110 JHP 1536 fps
125 Soft point 1322 fps
140 HP 1265 fps
146 HP 1296 fps
158 soft point 1187
158 Speer SWC or RN 1250 fps
160 soft point 1168

And then there are "Defense loads in 2" barrel 38special revolvers"
125 Speer SP 1148 FPS

Next for giggles, I went to 45 ACP. Test gun 5" barrel.
200 SWC 800 fps
200 Soft Point 1,000 fps.


I now can safely load at standard pressure 200 lead SWC to just over 1100 fps.
The manual says 1142.


When I started in 1987 it was 4 grains of Bullseye and 5 grains of unique in a 38. Those days are gone.

I left out some information so no one tries this silly stuff.

David

Sent from my SM-T900 using Tapatalk

 

[ThomasT]

Ratshooter- thanks for the advice to “google ‘shooting with Hobie .38”. I took the first hit and it’s an excellent read.

Everyone should read Hobie’s blog post.

You're welcome Stinkypete. I have posted the link before but I don't think many take the time to read it. It was written by a poster here who says it better than I could have ever said it. And I knew the factory 38s had been reduced in power. I have only shot a few factory 38 Specials. When I got my model 19 I started reloading and started with 38 Specials and load data from the Speer #10 manual. My reloads felt like serious business. The factory stuff puzzled me because it felt so tame in comparison.

This was back around 1982. I was a big reader of Guns & Ammo and followed what Jan Libourel and Dave Arnold wrote and used some of the load data they posted. A favorite of Jans was a 158gr lead bullet pushed by 5.3grs of Winchester 231. Its a pretty stout 38 Special load. Even from a 2" barrel it blows the crap out of two liter coke bottles. Its a load I would count if I needed it.

For some a 357 is too much of a good thing. But a properly loaded 38 Special is a round almost anyone can learn to use.

 

[Don Fischer]

I doubt anyone has a real answer to the OP's question. Depend's on different thing's. Think you might find the difference asking which would you rather be shot with? I suspect given the same placement with similar build bullet's no one would really be crazy about being shot with either. Seem's question's like these come up about cartridges and bullet's a lot and the difference depends on a number of things. Bullet dia a bit, placement a lot and bullet construction a lot. Nothing in any cartridge really trump's use by the shooter! I carry 9mm's. I don't think the average person not on drug's could take many well placed shot's and keep standing. Out fooling around my hand gun's of choice are either my 38 Spec or even more so my 32 long. A highly qualified shooter will probably put your light's out with a 22 short!

For myself A strong preference for the 38 spec over the 9mm but, for defense or even assault I strongly prefer the semi auto action and don't know of any 38 spec in a semi auto. 38 Super would work but I haven't seen one in years.

Actually I think proformence wise the 38 bullet's have a edge, weight! If you are shooting at someone wearing heavier cloth's I think the heavier bullet will have a better chance of penetrating. Wish I knew more about recoil with 38's. I can't remember the last time I shot anything other than a cast bullet from a 38. Both my 9mm I practice with cast but load defense loads and some practice with jacketed bullet's. I don't shoot a 357 mag. Had a couple years ago and hated the recoil. Got to where the only way I'd shoot them was with 38 spec case's and cast bullet's. I don't notice much difference between my 38 and my 9mm in recoil. Years ago a friend died and I took his wife's 38 spec in a Detective Special and made sure it was shooting well for her. With factory jacketed bullet the recoil was awful!

One advantage to the 9mm's over the 38 spec for defense/assault use is round count. Revelover carry's six shot's. my shield carries 8 in the magazine and one in the chamber. My P-89 carries 15 in the magazine and one in the chamber. I normally carry the Shield, much lighter gun and think that if I really need more than 9 shot's the fight is already over!

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Never mind

 

[gwpercle]

I think the field has been leveled a little.

38 special Data

I have the speer #8 manual. 1970. Here are a few loads. Test gun is a 6" K38.
110 JHP 1536 fps
125 Soft point 1322 fps
140 HP 1265 fps
146 HP 1296 fps
158 soft point 1187
158 Speer SWC or RN 1250 fps
160 soft point 1168

And then there are "Defense loads in 2" barrel 38special revolvers"
125 Speer SP 1148 FPS

Next for giggles, I went to 45 ACP. Test gun 5" barrel.
200 SWC 800 fps
200 Soft Point 1,000 fps.


I now can safely load at standard pressure 200 lead SWC to just over 1100 fps.
The manual says 1142.


When I started in 1987 it was 4 grains of Bullseye and 5 grains of unique in a 38. Those days are gone.

I left out some information so no one tries this silly stuff.

David

Sent from my SM-T900 using Tapatalk

The 1970 Speer #8 was brand new and the latest data when I bought it to start reloading 38 spcl., 357 magnum and 45 acp..... We had some good loads worked out with that manual....still use a few of them .
Thank goodness my Ruger Blackhawk was well built... I had some loads in 38 special cases that should never be fired in older J frames or K frames for that matter .
The 45 acp loads with Super-Vel and Nosler 185 JHP's make me shudder today....
The Good Lord must surely watch over children and fools !

38+P vs 9mm with similar bullet weights ... like 147 grain and 125 grain it's a toss up. Even the light weigh bullets have about the same fps. At SD distances it's bullet placement that takes the day.
Gary