38 special

How does a 38 Special +P from a 4" bbl. stack up against the 9mm?
Click to expand...

It depends entirely on WHICH ammo you are comparing.

Suppose I compare a modern .38Spl +p with an expanding bullet that actually expands against the original 9mm load which was a 124gr FMJ at 1050fps from a 4" barrel.

Not quite the same thing is it?

if you know where to look, (or you're old enough to remember) there are decades and decades of gun writers ALL rating the .38 Special above the 9mm for self defense. The "why" was simple. In those days, there were NO factory loaded JHP bullets. The .38 Special was loaded with lead bullets which would, sometimes, deform and expand a bit. The 9mm was loaded with FMJ bullets which would not.

Today, there is a much, much wider selection of loads in both calibers, so comparisons have to be as much "apples to apples" as we can make them, or they're essentially meaningless.

And, don't take anybody's velocity numbers as gospel for what you will get from your gun. Probably close, but variations of as much as 100fps are not unknown.
 
I'd like to point out something that has been touched on but not explicitly pointed out.

Our bullets are precisely engineered and designed to function perfectly within a reasonably wide range of velocities, and designed to function well under as many conditions as can be expected. Frankly, when you collect matching brand and weight bullets at similar energy levels and velocity, the tested bullets from either of those rounds at with similar attributes will be indistinguishable by any normal means. I guess that only a cannelure would give it away to the average guy.

There are no absolutes. Using either of those rounds may give slightly different performance traits. Now consider that there are too many variables, and unpredictable happenings. A round may work perfectly 90% of the time in normal use. Then, the next round will hit the spleen, reverse course, and pop out of the bad guy's nose. Don't plan on anything based on the round, the bullet, the gun. None of those things matter compared to the simple facts of random deviations.

That said, will the .38 gives the same level of performance as the .500 S&W? Don't be daft. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that you will have to make major alterations in the two test subjects before you can get easily measurable differences.
 
38 special
Greetings,

How does a 38 Special +P from a 4" bbl. stack up against the 9mm?

That is all.

Rmocarsky
Click to expand...

There are a lot of good answers here especially given how broad the question is. So...what is it exactly that you want to know that has not been provided already or that could help folks get at what you are asking?

It's hard to tell if the question involves ballistics (energy and momentum) or choice of a sidearm for some unstated purpose.

tipoc
 
Either one works quite well as the starter pistol for the fat man's rush for safety.

Good point made. I guess that in the strictest sense the 9mm overall length at 1.140 compared to the .38 spl at 1.55 means that the .38 is better, but factually, if you are using archaic rounds, you can't stack them up at all. Using modern rounds with flat faced hollow points they both stack up very well.

I guess that this is the same answer I gave earlier, but just a ridiculous turn on the phraseology.
 
It depends on the ammo, the boutique stuff from Buffalo Bore/Underwood/Doubletap will likely exceed most 9mm, but when we're talking about off the shelf Walmart ammo, the 9mm will beat it.

I personally don't buy .38 Special only revolvers with barrels over 3 inches as you get so much more out of .357 and still have the option of .38. For 9mm revolvers, it's snub lengths only, there's no sense in a 4 inch 9mm revolver unless you want a revolver you can shoot a lot at the range and not spend a lot of money on ammo.

One thing I do want to mention is I find that cheap (the stuff under $15 a box) 9mm ammo shoots better than the cheap .38 ammo, which always costs more.

If this is for self defense, 9mm is fine, but if you're looking for defense against a hog or some other large-ish animal, .38 and it's heavier bullets is better.
 
Factory 38 ammo has to be kept mild due to the proliferation of old and crappy guns in this caliber. The +P really isn't and I consider it a very weak load. Properly loaded the 38 can match the 9mm but no factory load will do it.
Click to expand...

My favorite answer. I am a revolver guy so I prefer the 38 Special with MY handloads. I also have 9mm guns and think the nine is an equally fine round.

It probably more comes down to what you like best in gun styles. Which gun do you shoot best? If you're a young guy you will most likely gravitate to the auto and the allure of more rounds on hand. If you think you might want to reload the 38 is one of the easiest rounds to load for and the revolvers will work with every thing from primer powered plastic bullets to loads that approach bottom end 357 loads in power.

Both are very good rounds. There are no wrong choices here.
 
SAAMI Max pressure for the .38 Special +P is 18,500 PSI. 35,000 for the 9mm.
Click to expand...
I could be wrong, but hasn’t the SAAMI maximum for .38 Special +P been raised to 20,000 psi in the past couple of years?
 
not to my knowledge, I wasn't looking at the official site when I looked it up. I got similar figures. I think that I found 15k.
 
Laz said:
I could be wrong, but hasn’t the SAAMI maximum for .38 Special +P been raised to 20,000 psi in the past couple of years?
Click to expand...
Yes it has. The 2015 SAAMI publication lists the Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) of 38 Special +P at 20,000 psi.
 
There seems to be a lot of room in a 38 special shell - disregarding safety, how hot can someone load a 38?
 
About as hot as the hottest official data available from one of the powder or bullet manufacturers. Maybe a little hotter, maybe it will turn out to be a slightly less than tragic bit lower than official data.

In normal loadings there is no difference in case capacity between a .357 magnum and a .38 special using identical bullets with similar brass thickness. The maximum overall length comparison is within 0.04" difference. The case length of the magnum, however, is something like 0.14" longer.

So, what is the difference between a .38 and a .357? The only difference isn't really the round itself, it's the gun that it fits and whether or not that handgun can survive the extra 15,000 psi (+-) that the magnum round is loaded to.

So if you would load the .38 to max OAL, load without using a cannelure to crimp in place (taper crimp with smooth shank bullet) there is literally no ballistic difference between a .38 and .357.
 
There seems to be a lot of room in a 38 special shell - disregarding safety, how hot can someone load a 38?
Click to expand...
"disregarding safety", until it blows up. A very easy thing to do. There is no justification for loading a .38 hotter than safety allows...that is what guns chambered in .357 magnum are for.
 
"disregarding safety", until it blows up. A very easy thing to do. There is no justification for loading a .38 hotter than safety allows...that is what guns chambered in .357 magnum are for.
Click to expand...

There is no justification for loading anything hotter than safety allows. You can blow up .357s too. You can blow up anything. Some things are just easier to blow up than others. ;)

But lets be clear on something, safety means neither the gun, nor the brass fails in any way. You can load rounds that are "safe" but impractical. Rounds that are so hot that the brass sticks in the cylinder, and cannot be extracted by normal means can still be "safe" (gun doesn't blow up/break) but they are not practical.

That point can vary from gun to gun. It can even be within SAAMI pressure specs, depending on the gun used.

So if you would load the .38 to max OAL, load without using a cannelure to crimp in place (taper crimp with smooth shank bullet) there is literally no ballistic difference between a .38 and .357.
Click to expand...

Where do you think the .357 Magnum came from? From the .38 Special. Or, more properly, from the .38/44. Wesson and Sharpe (primarily) increased .38/44 load levels until they reached what is now known as .357 levels. They used .38 Spl cases to do it. THEN the .357 case was created, specifically longer than the Special case, to prevent chambering in .38 Special revolvers. Keith did essentially the same thing a couple decades later, used existing Special brass (.44 in his case) to reach the desired load levels, and those load levels were put into a new, longer, purpose made case (.44MAG) so they wouldn't chamber in .44Spl guns.
 
There is no justification for loading anything hotter than safety allows. You can blow up .357s too. You can blow up anything. Some things are just easier to blow up than others.
Click to expand...
That is not what I meant...I should have explained it, that if you want a hoter load than the .38 Special, just switch to the .357 Magnum, not that it should be overloaded either.
 
Where do you think the .357 Magnum came from?
Click to expand...

Yes, I know the history. Anyone could put together the .38-44, I guess, but IMO, creating ammunition meant for pressures and power level of .357 in a .38 spl casing is just nuts. Using a short case that would fit in the wrong chamber isn't a good idea. If a person is loading for a .357 pressure use the proper length brass. If you don't have the long cylinder throats that were cut to allow the longer cases it's probably a sign that it's not meant to use magnum level loads.

I'm kinda cautious about a few things. The hundreds of rounds of +P brass that I have is just sitting in boxes because I don't really load +P and I'm not going to have loads that don't match the headstamp. Someone who loads +P into an unlabeled headstamp isn't following the rules.
 
If you want you can load real 38 Special loads and forget about the weaker 38+P crap. Its a joke. I am tired of posting the link but google Shooting With Hobie and read the +P phenomenon written Saxon Pig. Then load your +P cases and enjoy the 38 special the way it was meant to be loaded and not the watered down crap they pass off as 38 Special and 38 Special +P.

I cannot figure out why the 38 was reduced in power after the 1970s. But now 38 Special is no better than the 38 Long Colt it was meant to replace. The original 38 Special was a real step up in power over the 38 Colt round. And with the bullets we have now the 38 is the best its ever been. At least it can be with full power loads.
 
ratshooter said:
If you want you can load real 38 Special loads and forget about the weaker 38+P crap. Its a joke. I am tired of posting the link but google Shooting With Hobie and read the +P phenomenon written Saxon Pig. Then load your +P cases and enjoy the 38 special the way it was meant to be loaded and not the watered down crap they pass off as 38 Special and 38 Special +P.



I cannot figure out why the 38 was reduced in power after the 1970s. But now 38 Special is no better than the 38 Long Colt it was meant to replace. The original 38 Special was a real step up in power over the 38 Colt round. And with the bullets we have now the 38 is the best its ever been. At least it can be with full power loads.
Click to expand...



Yep


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top