Mine is a 38-44 frame Smith & Wesson that was my dad's police service side arm. It was the first large frame that was modified to shoot the newest .357 magnum, the only round he carried! Though it has 38 Special on the barrel, this was strong enough for the .357 round that could stop an engin block! An original thread stated that you should never shoot the .357 round in a .38 Special, but the 38-44 frame was finally qualified by S&W for the heavier round.
.38 special
- Thread starter mnero
- Start date
Clifford L. Hughes
New member
Clifford L. Hughes
Mnero:
There's more than power and bullet size to consider when picking a self defence pistol: it's the recovery time needed for a second shot. The 38 Special permits faster second shot and it has adequate stoping poewr. Other good choices are the 9mm, the .40 S&W and the .45 ACP. The magnum calibers are out.
Semper Fi.
Gunnery sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired
Mnero:
There's more than power and bullet size to consider when picking a self defence pistol: it's the recovery time needed for a second shot. The 38 Special permits faster second shot and it has adequate stoping poewr. Other good choices are the 9mm, the .40 S&W and the .45 ACP. The magnum calibers are out.
Semper Fi.
Gunnery sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired
Last edited:
American Dad
Inactive
Great Round
I prefer my wifes S&W .38 J-Frame over all of my larger caliber weapons. Conceals easy and you can place all the rounds quickly in a tight shot group. I will purchase myself a J-Frame when I am done with Afghanistan and state side for good.
I prefer my wifes S&W .38 J-Frame over all of my larger caliber weapons. Conceals easy and you can place all the rounds quickly in a tight shot group. I will purchase myself a J-Frame when I am done with Afghanistan and state side for good.
Went to Cabella's with a daughter who had an 'ex' that didn't understand what 'ex' meant. Talked to the retired ATF agent, Nat'l Guard E6 and said 'purse gun'. We walked out with a Taurus 85 Ultralight she still has.
Wife retired as the Jail Nurse, got a CPL, permanently borrowed my LCR filled with Federal Nyclads, not +P since she is somewhat arthritic. The Nyclads because the Old Cop who told me about them being back on the market carried them for 30 years and used them twice. He also shoots at Camp Perry.
After loosing my LCR, managed to snag a 242 Airweight (Ti cyl, 7 shot) for under $400. Uses the same speedloader as my 686.
I also own a Victory model, and shoot it just for the love, carry it a little in the winter.
I own a USP 9, CZ-82, PA-63 also. The USP is just too big to conceal, awesome shooter with light recoil - feel like my CZ when shooting. The CZ is heavy, but also a joy to shoot. The PA-63 does get carried, slim and light weight and the Mak round is sufficient for self defense, anyone who thinks differently is seriously deluded about the capabilities of the Soviet military. Very fast follow up shots with either Mak.
But for self-defense for both women, and myself most of the time, it's a revolver, in .38.
For all of the reasons listed above for the .38, it's a great round. For the simplicity of a revolver, when you are surprised, when time is very short, when you can't think straight, when all those hours of range practice go out the window, when all you can think about is pulling the trigger. For well over 100 years revolvers have been keeping law enforcement people alive, and they much more than the military are likely to be in a surprise encounter.
Modern law enforcement rounds are designed not to just penetrate a body, but also defeat barriers, and penetrate a chest cavity after passing through an arm. To do this without penetrating clear through a body, they must be hollow points, and in this time of rules by lawsuits belief that police departments are using all those hollow points because of the size of the wound channel is missing the major point, that hollow points to a far less degree pass through the target and possibly into the leg of an innocent bystander who has a good lawyer and suddenly a new retirement plan.
The emphasis in the last 20 years on more powerful rounds for law enforcement to defeat barriers, in combat initiated by the officers is right - for law enforcement.
However, for 90 years before that, the round with a track record of reliable stopping without overpenetrating was the .38. When I thought about it, in any self-defense scenario I could think of, I wasn't going to be shooting through a barrier, I probably wanted it there. I wasn't initiating combat, my general idea is to fire twice and retreat if I can. And Sanow's cases of a couple of hundred shootings only one or two went beyond 4 shots.
There are other effective rounds that don't overpentrate - I think the Makarov is one, as is the .44 spl, .45acp and the .380. The 9mm might be borderline, but in a NYCPD shooting where two suspects were shot 46 times, one living but with a lot of through holes in him, the other killed by the only round that stayed in him, all with 9mm FMJ as the NYC cops aren't allowed hollow points. 2 cops and 3 bystanders were injured by through rounds.
The .40, .357, .357 Sig, 10mm, and .44mag all will overpenetrate easily and hollow points are the 'brakes'. But things happen, and a hollow point can get deformed or clogged, and then you left with the basic physics of a slug.
I looked at the .38's track record, it's flexibility and availability. So, that's how I came to accept an idea a hell of a lot of people already had, that the .38 is a fine round, doesn't overpenetrate and offers adequate stopping power, and a revolver for a civilian or BUG is the best damn idea ever.
Wife retired as the Jail Nurse, got a CPL, permanently borrowed my LCR filled with Federal Nyclads, not +P since she is somewhat arthritic. The Nyclads because the Old Cop who told me about them being back on the market carried them for 30 years and used them twice. He also shoots at Camp Perry.
After loosing my LCR, managed to snag a 242 Airweight (Ti cyl, 7 shot) for under $400. Uses the same speedloader as my 686.
I also own a Victory model, and shoot it just for the love, carry it a little in the winter.
I own a USP 9, CZ-82, PA-63 also. The USP is just too big to conceal, awesome shooter with light recoil - feel like my CZ when shooting. The CZ is heavy, but also a joy to shoot. The PA-63 does get carried, slim and light weight and the Mak round is sufficient for self defense, anyone who thinks differently is seriously deluded about the capabilities of the Soviet military. Very fast follow up shots with either Mak.
But for self-defense for both women, and myself most of the time, it's a revolver, in .38.
For all of the reasons listed above for the .38, it's a great round. For the simplicity of a revolver, when you are surprised, when time is very short, when you can't think straight, when all those hours of range practice go out the window, when all you can think about is pulling the trigger. For well over 100 years revolvers have been keeping law enforcement people alive, and they much more than the military are likely to be in a surprise encounter.
Modern law enforcement rounds are designed not to just penetrate a body, but also defeat barriers, and penetrate a chest cavity after passing through an arm. To do this without penetrating clear through a body, they must be hollow points, and in this time of rules by lawsuits belief that police departments are using all those hollow points because of the size of the wound channel is missing the major point, that hollow points to a far less degree pass through the target and possibly into the leg of an innocent bystander who has a good lawyer and suddenly a new retirement plan.
The emphasis in the last 20 years on more powerful rounds for law enforcement to defeat barriers, in combat initiated by the officers is right - for law enforcement.
However, for 90 years before that, the round with a track record of reliable stopping without overpenetrating was the .38. When I thought about it, in any self-defense scenario I could think of, I wasn't going to be shooting through a barrier, I probably wanted it there. I wasn't initiating combat, my general idea is to fire twice and retreat if I can. And Sanow's cases of a couple of hundred shootings only one or two went beyond 4 shots.
There are other effective rounds that don't overpentrate - I think the Makarov is one, as is the .44 spl, .45acp and the .380. The 9mm might be borderline, but in a NYCPD shooting where two suspects were shot 46 times, one living but with a lot of through holes in him, the other killed by the only round that stayed in him, all with 9mm FMJ as the NYC cops aren't allowed hollow points. 2 cops and 3 bystanders were injured by through rounds.
The .40, .357, .357 Sig, 10mm, and .44mag all will overpenetrate easily and hollow points are the 'brakes'. But things happen, and a hollow point can get deformed or clogged, and then you left with the basic physics of a slug.
I looked at the .38's track record, it's flexibility and availability. So, that's how I came to accept an idea a hell of a lot of people already had, that the .38 is a fine round, doesn't overpenetrate and offers adequate stopping power, and a revolver for a civilian or BUG is the best damn idea ever.
FireForged
New member
Its not what I would choose if I were going to storm a beachhead but I am just fine with it as my house gun.
With good JHP's and especially with a 4" or so barrel nothing wrong with the
.38 Special. Get into some of those bigger calibers you end up with allot more recoil and muzzle blast. Maybe a much larger revolver. Rapid, multiple, well placed shots are what make a handgun work. Their is a balance between caliber of control and firepower. I don't see it worth trading off to much of the ability to control the weapon vs. more power. Put it this way the F.B.I. issued S&W Model 13 .357 Magnums for years. he loaded them with 158gr. +P LSWCHP.
Felt it was a better balance of power vs. the ability to shoot the weapon well compared to the .357 Magnum. No complaints on this combination whne the F.B.I., Chicago Police, and the R.C.M.P. carried this load. The only reason they switched to auto's was the bad guys had them and they carried more rounds and were easier to reload fast. Trade if you want. I'm not big into revovers anymore. But a good say Model 10 with the F.B.I. load is a pretty effective combination yet to this day
.38 Special. Get into some of those bigger calibers you end up with allot more recoil and muzzle blast. Maybe a much larger revolver. Rapid, multiple, well placed shots are what make a handgun work. Their is a balance between caliber of control and firepower. I don't see it worth trading off to much of the ability to control the weapon vs. more power. Put it this way the F.B.I. issued S&W Model 13 .357 Magnums for years. he loaded them with 158gr. +P LSWCHP.
Felt it was a better balance of power vs. the ability to shoot the weapon well compared to the .357 Magnum. No complaints on this combination whne the F.B.I., Chicago Police, and the R.C.M.P. carried this load. The only reason they switched to auto's was the bad guys had them and they carried more rounds and were easier to reload fast. Trade if you want. I'm not big into revovers anymore. But a good say Model 10 with the F.B.I. load is a pretty effective combination yet to this day
since I left anti gun territory ( NYC) ..I have a few guns..my colt defender, springfield xd9 sub compact, springfield 1911 A1 GI and a few more...what I gravitate to most is my Jframe model 36 made in 1981..shoots great, and I use the JHP low recoil ammo...it gets the job done, easy to conceal, and when I want to open carry...I carry the K frame model 10 4 inch barrel made in 1944..the way I look at it , self defense is going to be close enough that a 38 cal bullet will put em down...cant beat a 38 in my book, and never will...
Was watching TV last night. Crime story. Badddd lady put 3 .44 magnum slugs in unarmed guy she was trying to kill and hurt him badly. He almost bled out, but didn't and wasn't hurt so badly that he wasn't able to testify.
The investigator and narrator of the program seemed astonished that he was hit by 3 .44 magnum bullets and lived to tell about it.
But heres the thing: He was shot at close range by what looked like jacked hollow points, blew right through him without expanding and not one round hit him in the head or heart/liver/area of his body.
Looked like a classic case of FLINCH if I ever saw one.
If she'd had something like a Colt OP 38 Special loaded with 158 grain SWLHP's she'd probably have hit him 3 times dead center (or 6 times if she could pull the trigger faster than he could fall) and he wouldn't be with us today.
In this particular case the good guy got shot so luckily the woman shooter had too much gun for her own good.
My point is just that the only thing a hand cannon you can't handle is good for is to keep your adversary in the fight.
Far better to have a 38 Special you can handle, enjoy practicing with (and can AFFORD to practice with) and that you absolutely know without any question whatsoever that you are good enought with to hit dead center whatever you're shooting at.
If you shoot a S&W Model 10 or Colt OP sized 38 Special enough, you"ll really get good with it, in fact if you practice enough, you should be able to hit a dinner plate size target at 15' every time you pull the trigger without really aiming. You'll just know where the bullets going to hit. You won't have to worry about squeezing the trigger or anything else. (Now hitting a target at 30' or more" is another matter. That's what single action and sights are for.) But the key to shooting anything well is to never shoot ammo that either makes you flinch or that you have to steady yourself and think "DON"T FLINCH" in order not to. Either one can get you killed.
The investigator and narrator of the program seemed astonished that he was hit by 3 .44 magnum bullets and lived to tell about it.
But heres the thing: He was shot at close range by what looked like jacked hollow points, blew right through him without expanding and not one round hit him in the head or heart/liver/area of his body.
Looked like a classic case of FLINCH if I ever saw one.
If she'd had something like a Colt OP 38 Special loaded with 158 grain SWLHP's she'd probably have hit him 3 times dead center (or 6 times if she could pull the trigger faster than he could fall) and he wouldn't be with us today.
In this particular case the good guy got shot so luckily the woman shooter had too much gun for her own good.
My point is just that the only thing a hand cannon you can't handle is good for is to keep your adversary in the fight.
Far better to have a 38 Special you can handle, enjoy practicing with (and can AFFORD to practice with) and that you absolutely know without any question whatsoever that you are good enought with to hit dead center whatever you're shooting at.
If you shoot a S&W Model 10 or Colt OP sized 38 Special enough, you"ll really get good with it, in fact if you practice enough, you should be able to hit a dinner plate size target at 15' every time you pull the trigger without really aiming. You'll just know where the bullets going to hit. You won't have to worry about squeezing the trigger or anything else. (Now hitting a target at 30' or more" is another matter. That's what single action and sights are for.) But the key to shooting anything well is to never shoot ammo that either makes you flinch or that you have to steady yourself and think "DON"T FLINCH" in order not to. Either one can get you killed.
My S&W 640-1 .357 (2" barrel) is probably my favorite gun and I carry it often. I hate shooting the .357 magnum loads so I carry 38 Special Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135gr. +P HP ammo. This ammo works well and does all the SD magic I need it to do ... plus, I shoot this gun very well and it conceals great IWB.
Do the research on this load ... it's one of the best 38 specials on the market for short barrel loads.
Do the research on this load ... it's one of the best 38 specials on the market for short barrel loads.
BigPapa4147
New member
I just got back from the range, shooting my new S&W 442 for the first time, and I fired some .38 special out of my GP-100. I've loaded some light .357mag for the GP-100 and they made it fun to shoot, but the .38s made it an absolute joy to shoot (and yes, I can handle full-house .357 loads no problem
) I think as long as the .357 magnum is around, the .38 Special will be here too.
) I think as long as the .357 magnum is around, the .38 Special will be here too.I Wanted to post in this thread due to it being a subject close to my heart. My first EVER shot with a pistol and all subsiquent training from then on till i purchased my first handgun was from a Smith and Wesson M15-3 with a 4" barrel. Fell in love with that gun from the first moment my father in law showed it to me. He taught me to shoot with it, and then when i started security work, and needed a good gun he gave it to me.( It was his fathers old police reserve gun)
I will never part with this gun, except under one condition, and that is to teach my son to shoot it, and then when he is older and wiser, let him have it with the same stipulation my FIL gave me. NEVER SELL IT, IT NEVER LEAVES THE FAMILY...... EVER.
Its got a stock trigger, but its been shot so many times by the time i got it, that it was smooth. Not the lightest trigger, but smooth enough that quick accurate shots were easy. So far it is bone stock except for the stocks i put on along time ago, which im gonna change. Next thing im gonna do is get the minor pitting removed, have it reblued and then have a clear duracoat layer applied to the outside, then have the adjustable sights replaced with adjustable sights in either tritium or fiber optic.
LOL i love this gun.
I will never part with this gun, except under one condition, and that is to teach my son to shoot it, and then when he is older and wiser, let him have it with the same stipulation my FIL gave me. NEVER SELL IT, IT NEVER LEAVES THE FAMILY...... EVER.
Its got a stock trigger, but its been shot so many times by the time i got it, that it was smooth. Not the lightest trigger, but smooth enough that quick accurate shots were easy. So far it is bone stock except for the stocks i put on along time ago, which im gonna change. Next thing im gonna do is get the minor pitting removed, have it reblued and then have a clear duracoat layer applied to the outside, then have the adjustable sights replaced with adjustable sights in either tritium or fiber optic.
LOL i love this gun.
Wanted to post this follow up question to the experts here. I remember seeing a advertisement for the COLT dectective special. It was a old ad and it showed the 2 loads available for it. One was a powder puff at 650fps and the other was a barnstormer at 1200fps. I dont remember the grain weight of the faster rounds, but i dont think it was a light one. My question is, If yesterdays loads were todays plus P and yesterdays plus p is todays plus p plus, what can our revolvers really handle? The .38spc has a pressure limit of 20k makes me wounder what the old loads pressure was.
Second question, if a gun is rated for only "standard" pressure .38 why cant it take plus p? Dosent the gun have to be proofed at a lvl far higher then the max SAAMI pressure loading? So if the saami standard pressure is 20k, why cant the plus p loadings be used in them, since alot of them dont even break 18k.(if you dont count the buffalo bore stuff)
Second question, if a gun is rated for only "standard" pressure .38 why cant it take plus p? Dosent the gun have to be proofed at a lvl far higher then the max SAAMI pressure loading? So if the saami standard pressure is 20k, why cant the plus p loadings be used in them, since alot of them dont even break 18k.(if you dont count the buffalo bore stuff)
secret_agent_man
Moderator
That's news to me, Massad Ayoob and Speer, who makes the two duty rounds for that jurisdiction: The 135 grain 38 Short Barrel +P 38 Special for backup guns and grandfathered four inch revolvers, and the 124 grain 9mm +P round carried in semi automatics.
Mike Irwin
Staff
As I understand it, when they were first adopted some years ago, NYC issued FMJ ammunition for their Glocks due to reliability concerns. Apparently the board of governors or whomever made the choice to switch to a semi-auto was concerned that HPs just wouldn't feed reliably in a semi-auto.
Plus P ammo may not blow up a handgun but continued use of it will accelerate wear on the gun, especially aluminum framed guns.
I think it is inaccurate to say today's loads don't peak out at maximum pressures. This will, of course, depend upon the round. Some loads may reach maximum peak pressure and very quickly drop off and achieve lower velocitieis than other loads like Buffalo Bore. Buffalo Bore (and others) achieve their results by sustaining maximum or near maximum pressures for a longer period of time.
Keep in mind that plus P ammo exceeds the maximum pressure for that round by definition.
Possibly two things at work here. First, today's instruments record both pressure and velocity more accurately. I also think the affordability of good chronos keeps ammo manufacturers' numbers more realistic. Second, a lot of the ammo out there is loaded just a little on the conservative side for various reasons. But, as discussed above, there is "hot" ammo available -- Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Corbon.
MashieNiblick
Moderator
mordis,
i don't know the exact answer to your question regarding what pressures .38 specials can handle, but:
my .38 specials:
- SP101
- LCR
are available in .357 mag with close to if not identical frames. .
i don't know the exact answer to your question regarding what pressures .38 specials can handle, but:
my .38 specials:
- SP101
- LCR
are available in .357 mag with close to if not identical frames. .