.38 special +P ?

Just for fun, here's a S&W ad from before WW II stating that the K frame M&P revolver can be fired with 38/44 ammo. The 38/44 load was a 158 lead SWC at 1125-1140 FPS and operated at far, far higher chamber pressures than current mainstream +P. Colt also advertised their D frame (Police Positive Special) as 38/44 capable (also pictured below). Comments from the doubters when I show these usually go "Well, they didn't know any better at the time" or "They didn't really mean it."

Again, you're falling back on old advertising claims. I'll give you that one of those revolvers probably wouldn't blow up from shooting .38/44 ammo, but I very much doubt that it would hold up well to continuous shooting with thousands upon thousands of rounds of it like it would with standard pressure .38 Special ammo.

Of course, Colt and S&W probably assumed that no one would be foolish enough (or have a high enough pain tolerance considering the factory grips) to shoot .38/44 ammo continuously. More likely, the average person would shoot a box or two of .38/44 ammo every now and then and practice primarily with standard .38 Special ammo. Of course, one cannot make such assumptions today because too many people expect their guns to be able to handle a steady diet of nothing but full-power ammunition.

A retired cop I communicated with said he used 1,000 rounds of 38/44 he found in the department ammo locker through his issue M10 in the late 1950s with no effect. Not sure I would have done that, but he did, and if the 38/44 ammo didn't faze that K frame, current +P would be a lollipop by comparison.

There are a few of problems with this statement. Number one is that a M10 from the late 50's and a M&P from the early 20's are not the same thing (and if it was indeed a M10 then it could not have been produced before the late 50's). Secondly, in the grand scheme of things 1,000 rounds really isn't all that much. Neither you, I, nor your cop friend knows what condition that revolver might have been in had he fired 5,000 or 10,000 rounds of .38/44 ammo. Finally, your friend was using a fairly new gun at the time. The vast majority of 1950's or older vintage revolvers out there today have been resold multiple times and there not much way to tell how much of what kind of ammo the previous owner(s) shot through them.

Here's an ad for ammo marketed by S&W in the late 1960s and early 1970s (I think the time frame is thus). How about that 125 JHP at 1380 FPS? Doubters say "Well, they lied about the velocity." Granted, all ammo makers fudged a bit back before every Tom, Dick and Harry had a chronograph, but in my experience the inflation was on the order of 5% or so. Assuming a 10% inflated claim, that still leaves it at over 1200 FPS leaving the current +P at 925 in the dust. The lawyers told them to stop marketing truly hot ammo because of crappy imported guns floating around. So they started making weak and wimpy stuff and labeled it +P to fool the public into thinking one could buy high performance ammo.

It's an advertisement and it doesn't prove anything. You say that the advertised velocities were 5-10% inflated, well I'm sorry but I'm going to need a little more than "in my experience" to believe that. Show me some independant third-party chronograph data comparing vintage and current ammo through a single revolver with a reasonable barrel length and then we'll talk. Until then, I don't much care what old advertisements say because there's no way to verify the claims.

As for the often repeated statement that there is no relationship between chamber pressure and velocity, hogwash. Pressure is what creates velocity. It's the pressure within the chamber that pushes the projectile out the barrel. The higher the pressure, the higher the velocity. Certainly manipulations can be made with powders and primers to a certain extent, but basically, if you want the bullet to go faster, you must raise the chamber pressure. The 38 goes 730 FPS at 16,500 PSi and the 357 pushes the same bullet to 1,300 FPS but running at 34,000 PSI. Obviously pressure and velocity are not in a straight line, and pressure goes up faster than does velocity. But there is most definitely a cause and effect relationship between velocity and chamber pressure. If velocities are reduced, like when the major ammo companies lowered the standard 158 38 Special from 840 to 730 FPS, so are pressures.

Your understanding of the relationship between pressure and velocity is obviously very limited. It's not as simple as higher pressure=higher velocity. SAAMI rates ammo according to peak pressure, but peak pressure does not directly correlate with velocity. Just as important, if not more so, is how long that peak pressure can be maintained. Fast buring powders reach their peak pressure quickly, but that pressure also falls off quickly and, conversely, slow burning powders don't reach peak pressure as fast but the pressure also doesn't fall off as quickly. This is why slow-burning powders are better for long barrels and fast burning powders are more suitable to short barrels: a short barrel needs peak pressure to be reached quickly to attain maximum velocity while a long barrel needs peak pressure to be maintained as long as possible. So long as people aren't paying attention to what barrel length or type you're testing from, it probably wouldn't be that hard to get impressive velocity figures without being overpressure by simply loading the case full of very slow burning powder. The problem is, that the barrel necessary to get those velocities would be so long that it wouldn't be comparable to any common service sized revolver.
 
You're right. There is absolutely nothing that can be said or shown to change your mind. You've decided what you know and that is that. You will dismiss anything and everything that is contrary to your beliefs.

Like I said, I am wasting my time. I'm done.
 
I agree with Saxon Pig. Again!

Not sure why I get into these arguments but I keep doing it. I have this nagging belief in the truth that often gets me in trouble...or at least causes me to tilt at windmills. Like SP, I'm done with this one.

Dave
 
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