.38 special bashing and self delusion
- Thread starter kojak
- Start date
Kojak, there is a 500ft-lb 9mm factory load; +p+ 115gr @ 1400fps from Buffalo Bore or 147gr for 451ft-lb. Not bad huh?
Also I think your numbers are a little off too; (from Winchester catalogue)
.380 95gr = 192ft-lb = 69%
9x18 95gr = 212ft-lb = 76%
.38spc 110gr = 218ft-lb (should be used as 100% IMO) = 78.4%
.38+p 158gr = 278ft-lb =100%
9mm 115gr = 383ft-lb (silver tip) = 137.8%
If you want to use .38 +p as a norm (100%) you should also compare it to 9mm +p to make it fair. But even so .38 +p is closer to .380 than to 9mm; (regular) 9mm is almost 38% more powerful than 38+p. While .380 is only 31%less powerful than .38+p. Although this is better comparison; 9mm has 55% more power than regular .38 load.
Since we started talking about .45; Winchester ammo goes form 356-416 ft-lb hardly more powerful than a good 9mm load (in fact less than most +p 9mm loads)
Also I think your numbers are a little off too; (from Winchester catalogue)
.380 95gr = 192ft-lb = 69%
9x18 95gr = 212ft-lb = 76%
.38spc 110gr = 218ft-lb (should be used as 100% IMO) = 78.4%
.38+p 158gr = 278ft-lb =100%
9mm 115gr = 383ft-lb (silver tip) = 137.8%
If you want to use .38 +p as a norm (100%) you should also compare it to 9mm +p to make it fair. But even so .38 +p is closer to .380 than to 9mm; (regular) 9mm is almost 38% more powerful than 38+p. While .380 is only 31%less powerful than .38+p. Although this is better comparison; 9mm has 55% more power than regular .38 load.
Since we started talking about .45; Winchester ammo goes form 356-416 ft-lb hardly more powerful than a good 9mm load (in fact less than most +p 9mm loads)
juliet charley
New member
Fortunately, there is a lot more to the story than muzzle energy.
jeff_troop
New member
"Fortunately, there is a lot more to the story than muzzle energy."
yep. the thought of getting hit with a 230 gr bullet at any speed makes by head hurt.
yep. the thought of getting hit with a 230 gr bullet at any speed makes by head hurt.
Lots of science and math.
Do crooks really understand all this stuff?
I think most of it's really just mental unless there's a CNS hit involved.
I don't want to get shot with any of them, but I suppose if I did get shot I would want as little a bullet as possible. I just bought a keltec p11. Boy those 9mm's are tiny. But it's easier to carry than a 45. When I'm not expecting trouble, I'll carry the little 9mm. But the 45 will be always be around.
If you want more bullets, get a 9mm. if you want a revolver, get a 38. if you want bigger holes get a 45. if you want something in between get a 40.
Do crooks really understand all this stuff?
I think most of it's really just mental unless there's a CNS hit involved.
I don't want to get shot with any of them, but I suppose if I did get shot I would want as little a bullet as possible. I just bought a keltec p11. Boy those 9mm's are tiny. But it's easier to carry than a 45. When I'm not expecting trouble, I'll carry the little 9mm. But the 45 will be always be around.
If you want more bullets, get a 9mm. if you want a revolver, get a 38. if you want bigger holes get a 45. if you want something in between get a 40.
I read these threads as avidly as anyone and it's all real interesting but once in a while I recollect those posts which say we all make to much of the relatively small differences between these rounds and nod my head in agreement. I pick a platform I like and shoot the caliber(s) available in that platform (DA revolver/.38/357). I just cannot imagine a scenario where my choice of platform or caliber is going to be more important than my ability to shoot same. My degree of my skill (or lack of it) is much more important than my hardware, IMO.
I went into a gun store one day and looked at guns. I thought "That one looks nice", so I bought it. I asked the clerk, "Got any bullets for this thing?" He said sure, and shoved a box of bullets across the counter. I paid for them and took them to the range and shot them. They all went bang and made a hole in the target. I got some more of them.
"If you want to use .38 +p as a norm (100%) you should also compare it to 9mm +p to make it fair. But even so .38 +p is closer to .380 than to 9mm; (regular) 9mm is almost 38% more powerful than 38+p. While .380 is only 31%less powerful than .38+p. Although this is better comparison; 9mm has 55% more power than regular .38 load."
Agreed, you can see it so. Somehow I know you'd come up with those winchester figures The best load in 9mm is 115gr, I chose the best 147gr load for comparison as i don't want to shoot anything else to 158gr in .38
I never intended to say .38 +P rivals 9mm +P in factory loads. There's no way a .38 out of a revolver surpasses 9mm and if it does in some loads (like Corbon +P vs. normal 9mm or something) it won't offer any advantage because it will have more bang and more recoil than the 9mm because revolvers aren't energy efficient.
Nonetheless, The figures show that .38 +P plays in the same league as normal 9mm. Corbon +P out of 4" barrels is 420 ft-lbs vs. 451 in 9mm. Buffalo Bore +P is 420ft-lbs for .38 special, too, while Buffalo Bore 9mm +P is 431ft-lbs and 500 in +P+
Perhaps one can say the following things:
1. .38 special in 2" snub nosed revolvers is like .380
2. "factory load" .38 special +P is in the right in the middle between .380 and 9mm +P and rivals (i.e. less than 20% difference) slow non +P loads in 9mm
3. hot .38 special +P like Buffalo Bore / Corbon are in the same league as 9mm +P
4. the hotter the loads the less leads the 9x19 in the energy department, for instance .38 special vs. 9mm 55-60% while Corbon/Buffalo Bore .38 +P vs. 9mm +P+ is 20%.
5. Although right on par with 9mm +P, 38 +P should be compared to 9mm +P+ as both are the hottest possible loads and I can't imagine any 9mm weapon that isn't capable of shooting +P+ while .38 +P is right on the edge for many revolvers.
Where has this discussion lead us? I think not very far. Still the 9mm has 20% more energy and still that is meaningless and won't make any difference. Why? 20% more is an advantage. But energy isn't everything. Higher bullet weight has advantages, too. The most important factor is: do you think the +20% advantage of 9mm is more or less important than capacity? I'd definitely say less important. So why bother with energy figures? Either you're a revolver or semi auto guy.
At least in our free market capitalist society we can choose whatever is right for each of us. Perhaps that's the most important.
Agreed, you can see it so. Somehow I know you'd come up with those winchester figures
The best load in 9mm is 115gr, I chose the best 147gr load for comparison as i don't want to shoot anything else to 158gr in .38I never intended to say .38 +P rivals 9mm +P in factory loads. There's no way a .38 out of a revolver surpasses 9mm and if it does in some loads (like Corbon +P vs. normal 9mm or something) it won't offer any advantage because it will have more bang and more recoil than the 9mm because revolvers aren't energy efficient.
Nonetheless, The figures show that .38 +P plays in the same league as normal 9mm. Corbon +P out of 4" barrels is 420 ft-lbs vs. 451 in 9mm. Buffalo Bore +P is 420ft-lbs for .38 special, too, while Buffalo Bore 9mm +P is 431ft-lbs and 500 in +P+
Perhaps one can say the following things:
1. .38 special in 2" snub nosed revolvers is like .380
2. "factory load" .38 special +P is in the right in the middle between .380 and 9mm +P and rivals (i.e. less than 20% difference) slow non +P loads in 9mm
3. hot .38 special +P like Buffalo Bore / Corbon are in the same league as 9mm +P
4. the hotter the loads the less leads the 9x19 in the energy department, for instance .38 special vs. 9mm 55-60% while Corbon/Buffalo Bore .38 +P vs. 9mm +P+ is 20%.
5. Although right on par with 9mm +P, 38 +P should be compared to 9mm +P+ as both are the hottest possible loads and I can't imagine any 9mm weapon that isn't capable of shooting +P+ while .38 +P is right on the edge for many revolvers.
Where has this discussion lead us? I think not very far. Still the 9mm has 20% more energy and still that is meaningless and won't make any difference. Why? 20% more is an advantage. But energy isn't everything. Higher bullet weight has advantages, too. The most important factor is: do you think the +20% advantage of 9mm is more or less important than capacity? I'd definitely say less important. So why bother with energy figures? Either you're a revolver or semi auto guy.
At least in our free market capitalist society we can choose whatever is right for each of us. Perhaps that's the most important.
juliet charley
New member
On a round for round basis (barring all the revolver versus autoloader nonsense), if you took a LEO or an armed citizen and gave him/her a three, four, five or six inch (all relatively common) K-frame stuffed with +P 158-grain LSWCHP by W-W or R-P, they would be as well-armed as they would be with any current 9x19.
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Marko Kloos
Inactive
Coulda had me fooled...from the debate here, one could get the impression that a 9mm will kill a man more dead than a .38 Special.
I like the 38. I carry a Colt DS as my BUG and when I'm off duty it's my CCW piece. I like the 9mm also, but the 38 is what I've opted for. I don't feel underarmed for what I need it for. Anyone who would knowingly go into a gunfight with just a handgun isn't real smart, but for all the other times a handgun (even in 38 special) is better then nothing.
Use a heavier bullet. The 9mm has 147gr. ammo which is still more powerful than the 158gr. .38spl. You can use a 147gr. FN FMJ which will penetrate through just about anything. You don't have to use just one bullet weight and as a matter of fact the FBI recommends the use of 147gr. over the 115gr. for SD against humans, which has shown to underpenetrate.
Did some more research on handgun ballistics. While many compare .38 special to 9mm it's just not comparable, both calibers are in reality totally different because of bullet weight.
The standard weight for 9mm is 115gr, for .38 158gr You probably will have to use those when you use fixed seights..
I compared Winchester ammunition.
1. 9mm 115gr USA JHP 1225 fps muzzle velocity, .142 bc
2. .38 158gr LSWCHP 890 fps muzzle velocity, .206 bc
That gives you a 37.7% energy advantage for the 9mm.
But what happens with distance? My assumption was the .38 would hold the speed much better despite worse bc because of higher sectional density.
Well, the 9mm looses 11.23% of its energy at 25 yards, the .38 3.6%
The breakeven point comes at 150 yards where both have ca. 225 ft-lbs,
that's 80.9% retained energy for the .38 special and only 58.7% for the 9mm!
So my theory is in fact true. Of course meaningless, who shoots even past 10 yards in real world incidents? BUT, retained energy has to do with wind resistance. Resistance in air isn't any different than water, gelatine and humans. Only that those mediums are far denser.
So in a simple world by shooting into those mediums you accelerate things and have inches into gelatine instead of tens of yards in air.
That means .38 special has more penetration than 9mm in gelatine as it has more penetration into air so to say.
So the less energy is in fact counterbalanced by penetration so that both calibers perform the same in such cases as head shots.
Is the higher energy figure of 9mm meaningless? Where is all that energy going if not into penetration? Simple: 9mm ball transmittes much more energy to the tissue than jacketed .38 specials
Could that be the reason why all those old non expanding .38 bullets had such low reputation? Yes, in the old times a .38 SWC with 1/4 less the energy of a 9mm ball doesn't perform 1/4 as worse as the 9mm but much worse, stopping power could very well only be 50% of the 9mm ball.
Today we have excellent expanding bullets to choose from and the .38+P is nearly on par with the non +P 9mm considering stopping power. The overall performance is even better considering penetration, ballistics etc.
E.g. head shots on wild boar should be one case where you'll find that 9mm looses many of the advantages over .38
158gr at 890fps just isn't the same as 115gr at 1225fps.
The standard weight for 9mm is 115gr, for .38 158gr You probably will have to use those when you use fixed seights..
I compared Winchester ammunition.
1. 9mm 115gr USA JHP 1225 fps muzzle velocity, .142 bc
2. .38 158gr LSWCHP 890 fps muzzle velocity, .206 bc
That gives you a 37.7% energy advantage for the 9mm.
But what happens with distance? My assumption was the .38 would hold the speed much better despite worse bc because of higher sectional density.
Well, the 9mm looses 11.23% of its energy at 25 yards, the .38 3.6%
The breakeven point comes at 150 yards where both have ca. 225 ft-lbs,
that's 80.9% retained energy for the .38 special and only 58.7% for the 9mm!
So my theory is in fact true. Of course meaningless, who shoots even past 10 yards in real world incidents? BUT, retained energy has to do with wind resistance. Resistance in air isn't any different than water, gelatine and humans. Only that those mediums are far denser.
So in a simple world by shooting into those mediums you accelerate things and have inches into gelatine instead of tens of yards in air.
That means .38 special has more penetration than 9mm in gelatine as it has more penetration into air so to say.
So the less energy is in fact counterbalanced by penetration so that both calibers perform the same in such cases as head shots.
Is the higher energy figure of 9mm meaningless? Where is all that energy going if not into penetration? Simple: 9mm ball transmittes much more energy to the tissue than jacketed .38 specials
Could that be the reason why all those old non expanding .38 bullets had such low reputation? Yes, in the old times a .38 SWC with 1/4 less the energy of a 9mm ball doesn't perform 1/4 as worse as the 9mm but much worse, stopping power could very well only be 50% of the 9mm ball.
Today we have excellent expanding bullets to choose from and the .38+P is nearly on par with the non +P 9mm considering stopping power. The overall performance is even better considering penetration, ballistics etc.
E.g. head shots on wild boar should be one case where you'll find that 9mm looses many of the advantages over .38
158gr at 890fps just isn't the same as 115gr at 1225fps.
"Muzzle energy can be deceptive, and is not really a good indicator of incapacitation capability. For example, a .38 Spl +P 115gr bullet at 1,250fps has 399 ftlbs of energy, while a 158gr at 890fps has only 278 ftlbs. Penetration of gelatin for both rounds is effectively the same (14.8-15.4"), and in actual shootings the 158gr has proven a more consistent manstopper."
"Penetration (in) = (Bullet weight in pounds x Impact velocity/ diameter of Meplat in inches)/5"
"The results of various bullet weights and their velocities suggest that an increase in bullet weight is more beneficial that one of velocity. This makes sense. To push a bullet through several feet of meat needs a sustained pressure, and a heavy round has more inertia. A heavier bullet will also have more of its original energy by the time it reaches the target."
"Comparative results indicate that .45ACP, 9mm Luger and .40 S&W would all produce similar depth penetrations, although the wound channel of the .45 would be wider.
Most 38spl rounds would be similar in performance, although one "hot and heavy" loading (158gr at 1115fps) had a significantly better penetration, on par with 125gr .357 magnums and high velocity loadings of 38 Super.
158gr .357 and 10mm Auto rounds had about 50% better penetration than the .45, .40 and 9mm.
44 magnum rounds exceeded the penetration of any other rounds and created a broad wound channel."
"Penetration (in) = (Bullet weight in pounds x Impact velocity/ diameter of Meplat in inches)/5"
"The results of various bullet weights and their velocities suggest that an increase in bullet weight is more beneficial that one of velocity. This makes sense. To push a bullet through several feet of meat needs a sustained pressure, and a heavy round has more inertia. A heavier bullet will also have more of its original energy by the time it reaches the target."
"Comparative results indicate that .45ACP, 9mm Luger and .40 S&W would all produce similar depth penetrations, although the wound channel of the .45 would be wider.
Most 38spl rounds would be similar in performance, although one "hot and heavy" loading (158gr at 1115fps) had a significantly better penetration, on par with 125gr .357 magnums and high velocity loadings of 38 Super.
158gr .357 and 10mm Auto rounds had about 50% better penetration than the .45, .40 and 9mm.
44 magnum rounds exceeded the penetration of any other rounds and created a broad wound channel."