.38 special bashing and self delusion
- Thread starter kojak
- Start date
Cowdogpete
New member
Applies to more than weapons!
Cowdogpete
Ah yes, but later on Uglu got with child.
When she went into labor, Ooglu, learning his lesson from the leaves decided to imitate her.
Uglu gave forth a young one.
Ooglu produced a series of small decending farts.
(From "Prof." Alan Sherman - The Rape of the *Ape *American Puritan Ethic)
FWIW - the PHD may have adapted the names of Lola and Sap <-- the 2 main characters in Rape of the Ape.
Excellent book by the guy that sang Hello Mudda, (Camp Granada)
If you enjoyed the Prof, you might want to pick up the book. The "style" of the stories is too close for coincidence. It sounds like the PHD read and enjoyed the book,,then adapted the theme for his naratives.
Oh yeah the .38spl. Good round. Does everything a .357 will do if it has enough barrel in front of it.
When she went into labor, Ooglu, learning his lesson from the leaves decided to imitate her.
Uglu gave forth a young one.
Ooglu produced a series of small decending farts.
(From "Prof." Alan Sherman - The Rape of the *Ape *American Puritan Ethic)
FWIW - the PHD may have adapted the names of Lola and Sap <-- the 2 main characters in Rape of the Ape.
Excellent book by the guy that sang Hello Mudda, (Camp Granada)
If you enjoyed the Prof, you might want to pick up the book. The "style" of the stories is too close for coincidence. It sounds like the PHD read and enjoyed the book,,then adapted the theme for his naratives.
Oh yeah the .38spl. Good round. Does everything a .357 will do if it has enough barrel in front of it.
Mannlicher
New member
So much scientific data, so little sense.
Prudence, placement, power. In that order.
I think worrying about ammo type wastes valuable range time. It's the firearms equivalent of arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. My carry ammo of choice is 115-grain Speer Gold Dots. Why Gold Dots? Because I can get ballistically-identical Lawman ammo for cheap practice. Why 9mm? Because I can buy enough ammo to practice a lot. Barring special circumstances such as those given by sm above, I think skill with the firearm in question overwhelms consideration of a round's terminal performance.
I think worrying about ammo type wastes valuable range time. It's the firearms equivalent of arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. My carry ammo of choice is 115-grain Speer Gold Dots. Why Gold Dots? Because I can get ballistically-identical Lawman ammo for cheap practice. Why 9mm? Because I can buy enough ammo to practice a lot. Barring special circumstances such as those given by sm above, I think skill with the firearm in question overwhelms consideration of a round's terminal performance.
Everybody is going to get tired of this quote from a very good friend of mine, but, its my answer to stopping power..
Poke a hole, poke it all the way through, poke the biggest hole you can. I swear, thats what it all comes down to. Hollowpoints may open. The bullet may penetrate 10 inches and NOT reach the spine. The hollowpoint may collapse on glass, fill full of clothing...You can choose the best round you can and hope for the best.
But, the good solid semiwadcutter in .357...41...44 spec or Mag WILL poke a hole through whatever it goes into. My 3" 65 is loaded with .357 158 GR Semiwadcutters. My 696 is loaded with Thunder Ranch 250 GR Kieth Semiwadcutters...
But....My PM9 is loaded with WWB 115 Gr. HP's....I know they are reliable and function.
I am sure I can come up with criteria that will ALWAYS show that your round doesn't work and mine is better and I don't care what ammo you choose. And, change a few criteria and make yours the best and mine useless....
Poke a hole, poke it all the way through, poke the biggest hole you can. I swear, thats what it all comes down to. Hollowpoints may open. The bullet may penetrate 10 inches and NOT reach the spine. The hollowpoint may collapse on glass, fill full of clothing...You can choose the best round you can and hope for the best.
But, the good solid semiwadcutter in .357...41...44 spec or Mag WILL poke a hole through whatever it goes into. My 3" 65 is loaded with .357 158 GR Semiwadcutters. My 696 is loaded with Thunder Ranch 250 GR Kieth Semiwadcutters...
But....My PM9 is loaded with WWB 115 Gr. HP's....I know they are reliable and function.
I am sure I can come up with criteria that will ALWAYS show that your round doesn't work and mine is better and I don't care what ammo you choose. And, change a few criteria and make yours the best and mine useless....
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Dang, and the lumps on Irwin's head indicated he has a kind, gentle nature, and good humor."
And god knows I just love it when you rub my head, big boy...
And god knows I just love it when you rub my head, big boy...
here's some delusion
A gun is simply a launch platform; the bullet does the work.
I recommend a bullet of modern design that can be delivered reliably (as in "100% without exception") and accurately (enough for the circumstances at hand), repeatedly.
It should be as heavy and fast as one can deliver using my criteria.
(IME nobody wants to get shot with nothing, ay?)
A gun is simply a launch platform; the bullet does the work.
I recommend a bullet of modern design that can be delivered reliably (as in "100% without exception") and accurately (enough for the circumstances at hand), repeatedly.
It should be as heavy and fast as one can deliver using my criteria.
(IME nobody wants to get shot with nothing, ay?)
The ammo choice should be one that will penetrate to where it needs to get from all angles/barriers one is likely to encounter. After that, it's up to the person to train enough to be able to place them where they need to be. People criticise me a lot for it, but I'd rather a bullet that over penetrates than one that underpenetrates.
Use what you can HIT with!
Howdy,
I'm in complete agreement with SM. For Self-Defense one should use the weapon he/she is most comfortable using. If you feel confident using it ina stressful delf-defense situation, then THAT is the gun for you. Caliber choice is secondary.
I like the model 10 in .38 Special. Revolvers are so simple unders stress and 6 rounds is more than needed in most cases. More than needed. I'm still looking for a holster for my 5-inch model 10 to use for concealed carry. The 5-inch barrel gives a velocity boost (albeit a slight boost) over the more common 3 or 4-inch versions. I can HIT with a model 10. They aren't "cool", though!
Larry C.
Howdy,
I'm in complete agreement with SM. For Self-Defense one should use the weapon he/she is most comfortable using. If you feel confident using it ina stressful delf-defense situation, then THAT is the gun for you. Caliber choice is secondary.
I like the model 10 in .38 Special. Revolvers are so simple unders stress and 6 rounds is more than needed in most cases. More than needed. I'm still looking for a holster for my 5-inch model 10 to use for concealed carry. The 5-inch barrel gives a velocity boost (albeit a slight boost) over the more common 3 or 4-inch versions. I can HIT with a model 10. They aren't "cool", though!
Larry C.
My AIRSOFT SW M10 4 inch is cool! 
Jokes aside though, I am having difficulty reading through the gunnery jargon, as I'm a complete newbie to "Real" guns, but let me get this straight....
In a nutshell, the .38 special has the following advantages:
1) Price
2) Low recoil
....and the disadvantage:
1) Low stopping power
Is this correct? If so, why even buy a .38 such as the M10 (which I really like because of the history behind it....) if you can buy a .357 that can take the .38 for practicing, and the .357 for actual penetration?
Forgive me, I'm a newbie.
Jokes aside though, I am having difficulty reading through the gunnery jargon, as I'm a complete newbie to "Real" guns, but let me get this straight....
In a nutshell, the .38 special has the following advantages:
1) Price
2) Low recoil
....and the disadvantage:
1) Low stopping power
Is this correct? If so, why even buy a .38 such as the M10 (which I really like because of the history behind it....) if you can buy a .357 that can take the .38 for practicing, and the .357 for actual penetration?
Forgive me, I'm a newbie.
I liked the caveman stuff...thanks
Life was simpler then...no internet filled with information...some factual ...and some...not so much.
The .38 spcl is considered by many to be one of the "viable Self defense calibers"....but it is at the low end
Most of the "experts" that carry a .38 do so only in a BUG role...not as a primary. ( my apologies to any self proclaimed expert that does...I am happy for you)
These weapons have very short barrels that do not utilize the round to its fullest potential....which once again...is at the low end of the spectrum to begin with.
The biggest advantage that the 9mm has over the .38spcl is bullet design...
Until recently, there just was not much effort going into designing bullets for the .38...it got 9mm hand me downs.
But then they listened to the experts and we now have some new loads designed primarily for BUG use...they might also work well ouit of a 4" .38..I don't know!
A lot of the "experts" still utilize standard pressure rounds despite these new designs because they are more controllable out of the small BUG's
The delusionary aspect to any/all of this is any discussion of stopping power/one shot stop statistics, as well as anyone that makes more of the .38 than there really is simply to bolster their decision to carry it as a primary weapon.
It is A choice....but there are tradeoffs that should not be discounted or ignored
Life was simpler then...no internet filled with information...some factual ...and some...not so much.
The .38 spcl is considered by many to be one of the "viable Self defense calibers"....but it is at the low end
Most of the "experts" that carry a .38 do so only in a BUG role...not as a primary. ( my apologies to any self proclaimed expert that does...I am happy for you)
These weapons have very short barrels that do not utilize the round to its fullest potential....which once again...is at the low end of the spectrum to begin with.
The biggest advantage that the 9mm has over the .38spcl is bullet design...
Until recently, there just was not much effort going into designing bullets for the .38...it got 9mm hand me downs.
But then they listened to the experts and we now have some new loads designed primarily for BUG use...they might also work well ouit of a 4" .38..I don't know!
A lot of the "experts" still utilize standard pressure rounds despite these new designs because they are more controllable out of the small BUG's
The delusionary aspect to any/all of this is any discussion of stopping power/one shot stop statistics, as well as anyone that makes more of the .38 than there really is simply to bolster their decision to carry it as a primary weapon.
It is A choice....but there are tradeoffs that should not be discounted or ignored
A very viable choice if I may say so.
What is the alternative? I weight 135 lbs and so I'm limited to normal sized guns like a 4" revolver or a 9mm (Glock or CZ 75). Unfortunately semi autos are not for me. So what else should I choose? 357 magnum is too hot for me and .38 special out of them is even slower.
Winchester 158gr SWCHP vs. 147 gr. Super-X® Silvertip® Hollow Point is 278 ft-lbs vs. 333 ft-lbs., 20% more for the 9mm.
Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP vs. 9mm 147gr Gold Dot is 351 vs. 451 ft-lbs. or 28% more for the 9mm while it is +p+ vs. +p
.38 special +P out of the same gun has more energy than 9mm.
I know that .38 special is weak. But not that weak as it is made. i mean .38 special is inadequate and the 9mm with 20% more energy suddenly rivals the .45 acp and .40 s&w? Come on..
I think it is a formidable round. If only they could make cartridges for owners of service sized, 4" barrel revolvers like the M10, M15 etc. Those guns can shoot much more powerful load than the current weak 18500 psi +p loads. Just top the specs with real 19500 psi and I'm happy.
After all I think both the .38 special and 9mm are the best compromise considering penetration, weight of the arms, recoil and cost. All I want is the 9mm in a revolver in a revolver cartridge. 18500 psi vs. 35000 psi and just 20% more for the 9mm.. revolvers chambered for 9mm are not an option, too. they have less energy than .38 special.
In fact, most of the "modern" non +p stuff is far weaker than the original black powder .38 special out of 6" barrels was in 1902. Something's wrong here.
What is the alternative? I weight 135 lbs and so I'm limited to normal sized guns like a 4" revolver or a 9mm (Glock or CZ 75). Unfortunately semi autos are not for me. So what else should I choose? 357 magnum is too hot for me and .38 special out of them is even slower.
Winchester 158gr SWCHP vs. 147 gr. Super-X® Silvertip® Hollow Point is 278 ft-lbs vs. 333 ft-lbs., 20% more for the 9mm.
Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP vs. 9mm 147gr Gold Dot is 351 vs. 451 ft-lbs. or 28% more for the 9mm while it is +p+ vs. +p
.38 special +P out of the same gun has more energy than 9mm.
I know that .38 special is weak. But not that weak as it is made. i mean .38 special is inadequate and the 9mm with 20% more energy suddenly rivals the .45 acp and .40 s&w? Come on..
I think it is a formidable round. If only they could make cartridges for owners of service sized, 4" barrel revolvers like the M10, M15 etc. Those guns can shoot much more powerful load than the current weak 18500 psi +p loads. Just top the specs with real 19500 psi and I'm happy.
After all I think both the .38 special and 9mm are the best compromise considering penetration, weight of the arms, recoil and cost. All I want is the 9mm in a revolver in a revolver cartridge. 18500 psi vs. 35000 psi and just 20% more for the 9mm.. revolvers chambered for 9mm are not an option, too. they have less energy than .38 special.
In fact, most of the "modern" non +p stuff is far weaker than the original black powder .38 special out of 6" barrels was in 1902. Something's wrong here.
My take FWIW always is:
in .45acp, .44psc etc it doesnt really matter what bullet you use. They are all pretty effective.
In .25acp, .22 etc it doesnt really matter what bullet you use. They are all pretty ineffective.
In .38 and 9mm it matter tremendously what bullet and loading you use. The old .38 158gr SWC commonly issued to police had a notoriously bad reputation for stopping. They just didnt. When they developed the 158gr LHP for the FBI they turned the round into a fearsome thing. A little tweaking made all the difference.
in .45acp, .44psc etc it doesnt really matter what bullet you use. They are all pretty effective.
In .25acp, .22 etc it doesnt really matter what bullet you use. They are all pretty ineffective.
In .38 and 9mm it matter tremendously what bullet and loading you use. The old .38 158gr SWC commonly issued to police had a notoriously bad reputation for stopping. They just didnt. When they developed the 158gr LHP for the FBI they turned the round into a fearsome thing. A little tweaking made all the difference.
How do you come up with this stuff? Regular .38 has a ME of around 200ft-lb, and the +p is around 270ft-lb. Now a regular 9mm is around 360ft-lb and +p or +p+ is 400-500ft-lb. How does the .38 has more energy?.38 is closer to 9x18 or .380 than 9mm.
9mm does rival .40 and .45 calibers; .45 is often in the 300’s ft-lb - hardly more powerful than a 9mm..
who is that? Please explain. It seems like you really want the .38 but have hard time justifying it…
jeff_troop
New member
"Poke a hole, poke it all the way through, poke the biggest hole you can."
i hear this from my wife all of the time. now i have to hear it here as well
i hear this from my wife all of the time. now i have to hear it here as well
Plain and simple. .38 special looses much energy through the cylinder gap and through short barrels. Just look at .38 special out of a lever action, of course much more energy. A semi auto doesn't have a cylinder gap, it is much more energy efficient than a revolver. 9mm from a revolver with cylinder gap and perhaps 2" barrel won't give you the energy you're used to. Slightly below .38 special.
I never stated that the .38 has more energy than 9mm in the normal platforms. I stated 9mm has 20% more when bought from Winchester and 28% if bought from Corbon (btw. that is J-frame vs. full size auto, out of 4" barrels it's only 10%).
Your energy figures are slightly incorrect. 9mm +p has ca. 400 ft-lbs, not ever 500. 450 is from Corbon and that's one of the hottest +p+ loads out of all. 500 ft-lbs is .357 magnum out of 4" barrels..
And no, 9mm does not rival .45 acp. Perhaps +p or +p+ vs. the normal .45 loads. But .45 +p really offers 500 ft-lbs., a very potent round in the +p form!
Hm, let's see what Winchester does offer:
.380 85gr = 189ft-bs = 68%
.38 158gr = 278ft-lbs = 100%
9mm 147gr = 333ft-lbs = 120%
So I would say the .38 is nearer to 9mm than to .380 ;-)
Perhaps we just differ in our view. Might it be that you look at 9mm and .38 from the semi auto perspective? 115gr very high energy 9mm bullets, caliber more important than weapon in the semi auto world etc.
I take the revolver perspective: caliber doesn't matter that much as load (weakest/strongest load difference in .38 is 1:3), barrel length, I tend to heavy bullets as I am used to them etc.
I just don't like the general bashing of the .38 regardless of platform and I don't like todays underloaded .38s. They have way more potential than that, platform is all that limits if self loading for instance. Damn those alloy frame snubs.
I never stated that the .38 has more energy than 9mm in the normal platforms. I stated 9mm has 20% more when bought from Winchester and 28% if bought from Corbon (btw. that is J-frame vs. full size auto, out of 4" barrels it's only 10%).
Your energy figures are slightly incorrect. 9mm +p has ca. 400 ft-lbs, not ever 500. 450 is from Corbon and that's one of the hottest +p+ loads out of all. 500 ft-lbs is .357 magnum out of 4" barrels..
And no, 9mm does not rival .45 acp. Perhaps +p or +p+ vs. the normal .45 loads. But .45 +p really offers 500 ft-lbs., a very potent round in the +p form!
Hm, let's see what Winchester does offer:
.380 85gr = 189ft-bs = 68%
.38 158gr = 278ft-lbs = 100%
9mm 147gr = 333ft-lbs = 120%
So I would say the .38 is nearer to 9mm than to .380 ;-)
Perhaps we just differ in our view. Might it be that you look at 9mm and .38 from the semi auto perspective? 115gr very high energy 9mm bullets, caliber more important than weapon in the semi auto world etc.
I take the revolver perspective: caliber doesn't matter that much as load (weakest/strongest load difference in .38 is 1:3), barrel length, I tend to heavy bullets as I am used to them etc.
I just don't like the general bashing of the .38 regardless of platform and I don't like todays underloaded .38s. They have way more potential than that, platform is all that limits if self loading for instance. Damn those alloy frame snubs.