.38 special bashing and self delusion

K

kojak

New member
I always thought .38 special could not hold up to 9x19 as is stated everywhere in every test of terminal performance.

I found out that this is just not true.

I have a M15-3 with 4" barrel, the typical +P ammo gives 375 Joule compared to 440 Joule for the typical 9x19 ammo out of service sized semi-autos. That's only 17% more energy (of course you can go way higher with 9mm +P or +P+.. 500-550 Joule is possible but then again you can get very hot .38 special loads from Corbon, too).

Why is it then, that 9x19 performs so much better in real-life shootings? Speed. Although very comparable on paper the .38 special uses 158 grain bullets, the 9x19 115 grain bullets.
So the difference is a light, fast bullet vs. a heavy, slow bullet.

My eyes were opened when I read about the .357 mag being the best performing round even topping .45 acp +P
Don't underestimate .45 +P! The most powerful semi-auto catridge out there.. over 700 Joule even topping .357 magnum out of 4" barrels. More powerful than the wimpy 10mm loads of today. 357 mag ist the best performer because of it's huge speed. It's just a .38 special accelerated to 1.4x the speed level.

From here on it's simple: We know from rifle ballistics that slow, heavy bullets tend to penetrate deep, so use them for moose etc. Light and fast bullets will expand much more rapidly and make much more damage in small game like deer. The small game specialized calibers like .22-250 make use of that fact.

Obviously the 115gr 9x19 will expand much more than the 158gr .38 special. So 9x19 is indeed much better against human targets. But what if you are attacked by large sized animals while hunting? Suddenly the 9x19 115gr JHP becomes way inferior to the 50% one shot stop rate 158gr swc .38 special

I think we are trying to achieve too much by squeezing the last few percentages out of the one shot stop rates. Why not be confident with 70 to 90% one shot stop rates and have a more versatile round? Do you really think .357 mag is a better performer than .44 mag on large animals, too? The current craze about the jhp is very dangerous imo. Every hunter I know loads them. I guess my .38 special +P sjsp performs better than the 10mm jhp out of my brothers glock on wild boar.

If you make two shots against human enemies with a 70% one shot stop round the probability of stopping him is 91%..

A nice side effect of heavier, longer and slower bullets is that they don't loose speed as soon as the lighter and shorter bullets of 9x19. Look at ballistic tables how .38 special and 9x19 perform on 50 and 100 yards.

In the end all the discussion about effectiveness of handgun calibers is at best self delusionary. Just take the caliber of your choice, with the recoil you can handle best out of the weapon you can handle best and you will be fine.

At least .38 special has its advantages vs. the 9x19 in some areas.
 
Kojak,

Thank you for your post. I would respectfully offer two comments:

First, I am amazed at the number of highly experienced and very insightful shooters who use a .38 Special/.38 Special +P as their “always” handgun load (sometime in .357 revolvers). We can debate one-shot-stop, muzzle energy, cross-sectional density, etc. “numbers” all day, but the fact is many experts use .38 Specials and the round has a proven defensive record. Now, none of this criticizes the 9x19; however, BOTH rounds are fully viable defensive alternatives.

Second, you stated, “My eyes were opened when I read about the .357 mag being the best performing round even topping .45 acp +P”. It is very well established that a top-rated .357 magnum personal defense load is the historical “standard of comparison” for handgun personal defense. I would point out, however, that several other sidearm rounds outperform either the .357 magnum or the .45 ACP +P, including the .44 and.41 magnums (among others) for revolvers and the 10mm in autoloaders. None of this suggests that either the .357 magnum or the .45 ACP aren’t terrific rounds – they are, without doubt – and more velocity/power isn’t always a “good thing” (for example, I would worry about .44 magnum rounds hitting innocents in a multiple dwelling).

Many experts repeatedly suggest that any round from .38 Special/9x19 is viable for defense, IF YOU PROVIDE THE NECESSARY ACCURACY. I believe they are correct.
 
"Many experts repeatedly suggest that any round from .38 Special/9x19 is viable for defense, IF YOU PROVIDE THE NECESSARY ACCURACY. I believe they are correct."

These are the experts who don't have a vested interest in the Super Tactical Instant Destroyer and Killer load of the moment or are not humping a book they have written on Tactical Stopping Power!
 
"Many experts repeatedly suggest that any round from .38 Special/9x19 is viable for defense, IF YOU PROVIDE THE NECESSARY ACCURACY. I believe they are correct."

So other calibers are better if you miss?

I submit that for practical purposes, and given comparable bullet weights, there is no practical difference between .38 Special and 9mm P. Comparing a 115 grain 9mm to a 158 grain .38 is not really valid, even though the .38 might be as effective in the real world. Note that the greater capacity of the auto pistols in which the 9mm is (normally) used, is not the issue here.

Jim
 
Oh, my.

Joules and OSS ratings... :o

Someday we will all look back at "Handgun Stopping Power Ratings" the way we now look back at phrenology and Ptolemy's crystal spheres.
 
The object of the exercise in defensive shooting is to put a hole in a vital area of the target. If you put a hole in a vital area of the target then the size of the hole doesn't make a whole lot of difference. The "manstopping" capabilities of larger handgun calibers are a myth. No handgun will "knock a man down." No handgun caliber is a sure thing. Handguns simply aren't powerful enough and the difference between a .38 and a .45 isn't great enough to translate into clearly superior performance on human targets. Many men have run off with a .45 slug in them, and many men have been stopped cold with a solid hit from a .38.

I suggest one carry the gun one is most comfotable with and not worry about energy, bore size or bullet weight. Accuracy and remaining cool under fire are far more important than caliber.

BTW- What the Hell is a Joule?
 
9mm versus .38Special

Well, I think that with modern, properly designed loads/bullets from a top notch ammo maker (e.g., Speer Gold Dot +P), the .38 Special is fine.

Having said that, these two are fairly easy to compare, as the bullet is the same diameter. the 9mm is not the same, and does have about 1/5 more velocity, and 2/5 more energy:

From the Remington Catalog:
38 Special - 125gr +P, 975fps, 264ft-lb
9mm - 124gr +P, 1180fps, 384 ft-lb

Definitely the shooter's skill/calm will be the most important factor. Still, if we want to talk about the firearm, and not the shooter, the 9mm does offer an advantage in terminal ballistics, which is also born out in gelatin testing, beyond the above numbers. Rate/volume of fire can also be higher for the 9mm.
 
At least .38 special has its advantages vs. the 9x19 in some areas.
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I doubt that it's really ture; .38+p is around 250-278 ft-lb of muzzle energy, regular 9mm is ~320-365 and +P+ can be pushed to 500ft-lb that's almost twice as much evergy as a .38 +p.

You compared 115gr 9mm to 158gr .38 which is rether unfair; why not compare 147gr 9mm to 158 .38 or 124gr 9mm to 125gr .38?

Don't underestimate .45 +P! The most powerful semi-auto catridge out there..
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.45acp is the most powerful semi ato round? :eek: 9mm+p loads are more powerful than regular .45acp. Not to mention .357sig, 10mm (or even .40) and what about .50AE :p
 
I'm with Tamara and Jim Kennan on this.

Once upon a time [tm] there were two cavemen arguing ; Uh said sticks were better, Nuh argued rocks were better. Back and forth it went.

Then one day a strange group of Cave People passing through stayed at the Caveman Six...for traveling tribes.

The elder Yep , was showing the kids how to skip rocks in the lake for entertainment, the older kids he showed how to scrape hides with rocks, and others how to skew Dino Dogs on pointy sticks; roasting them on a fire.

Then one of the Cavemen dropped a big rock on his foot, he had been tying vines on a longer stick and pulling scaled critters out of the lake, skewing them on sticks and roasting them. He was using itty bitty critters on hook shaped bones to catch the scaled critters. He dropped the rock these critter were under...

Yep the elder then gave him a stick about so high to aid in walking with his limp.

Uh and Nuh stopped arguing, started paying attention. Their respective mates spoke of "silly little tribes" , they had already figured out how to skewer a hide on a stick over the cave opening and use a rock to keep it down and closed when the wind howled.

Seems Uh and Nuh had been too busy reading and writing on Cave walls - too busy arguing to see what else was going on in the world.

More things change - more it remains the same.

;)
 
sm, not really an apt analogy since your sticks and stones are performing different tasks and the different calibers are basically expected to do the same... besides, everyone knows that stones are better. :p
 
For a dollar I will enlighten folks how Oven mitts were discovered.

The PhD. I had for Professer in Western Civ explained it was Uglu that discovered these. Seems Ooglu the hubby reached into the fire to retrieve a piece of charred meat,he burned himself. Wifey Uglu just grabbed some heavy leaves and using these she reached into the fire and retrieved her charred piece of meat.

Ooglu just sat their moaning, stomach grumbling, blowing on his hands, Uglu ignored him and ate his meat lest it waste.

She later used vines with the leaves to make a "mitt".

This is where "haste makes waste" and oven mitts came about.

Yes this Professor actually put this on the first exam and on the final for extra credit. One of the most facinating and best educators I have ever had.

Now ya know... :D
 
sm, not really an apt analogy since your sticks and stones are performing different tasks and the different calibers are basically expected to do the same... besides, everyone knows that stones are better
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<Taps the eraserbord>

Turn off the iPod, remove the headphones and pay attention - gonna explain it one more time [tm].

It is NOT the item, it is the knowledge of and intent of user of said item.

Ooglu thought leaves were only good for toliet paper up until this time.

Uh and Nuh had limited themselves on the use of sticks and rocks.

Gun grabbers blame firearms for injury and death - it is always the intent of the User of a tool - not the tool itself.

If one does not have stones - much less the knowledge of how to use stones- what good is having stones?

If all you have is a stick - learn to use the stick. Got a big enough Stick you can get all the stones you want.

Where do you think Teddy learned to Walk Softly and Carry a Big Stick ?

Why he had a real smart PhD like I did to teach him. :D
 
Ammo selection is one thing about a lethal CCW encounter we CAN control. We should choose wisely. If ammo A or caliber B offers even a couple % points or so of advantage, and does so w/o seriously compromising some other important aspect? - I want that advantage. The real problem most of us have is in those % values...what do those % points really mean? ARE they accurate? ARE they repeatable? ARE THEY REAL? Seems to be alot of doubt these days! Atleast we can also look at the other numbers - expansion, penetration, energy, momentum, diameter.

There ARE some rounds that everyone seems to agree are among 'the best choices' - those are the calibers & bullets I would try to choose (in my case - heavy, wider, faster if possible, and yet still totally shootable - and most likely in a semi-auto for convenience and round count).
 
Someday we will all look back at "Handgun Stopping Power Ratings" the way we now look back at phrenology and Ptolemy's crystal spheres.
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Phrenology's not trustworthy? Dang, and the lumps on Irwin's head indicated he has a kind, gentle nature, and good humor. :p

Chris
 
Personally - I don't worry about it.

When I was a pup, we did not have all the platforms, calibers, and ammo we have today. I chose the Platforms that fit MY hand, and I shot best. I found the ammo that shot POA/POI best in my guns.

Personally - I have not wavered from my choices and decisons made back when I was a pup:

K frame Revolvers , and specifically the dedicated .38spls like the Model 10 , with 158 gr LWSC-HP. I still contend the 3" RB K frame ( or similar ) is the best defensive wheelgun. Bump this up the .357 like a Model 19, Ladysmith 65 or 66.

1911s , make mine Gov't model with 7 rd USGI or Colt mags.

BHPs in 9mm.

The only "new" gun platform I use and CCW is a Keltec P-11 in 9mm. I needed a niche gun. I kept this one after a T&E and I have ~ 20K rds thru mine with no hiccups. I shoot it a lot, and quite frankly I am damn good with it. I cannot CCW on campus - so I don't park on Campus. I have a simplex lock box and/ or do have an off campus location I can secure.

If you have never had to surrender a firearm to the Police, well consider the wise words Mr. Kennan shared about this once with us all. Since I have surrendered guns to Police, I choose to use the P-11 for my niche needs.

What I have seen?

-Folks do not get instruction in selection a firearm, they do NOT get training in what they do have - and do not continue to practice and train.

-Folks get a gun and never carry it. Makes no nevermind if the latest greatest firearm, with the bestest ammo.

-They do not carry because too hot, , too heavy, uncomfortable, too much hassle if have to remove to enter a NO CCW bldg or similar.

-They do not shoot the guns to see if they can shoot it, or if the ammo works, either reliabilty, manual of arms, or POA/POI

-They don't get a CCW if "allowed" to in their Jurisdiction.

-Afraid they will scratch / hurt the gun by holters, sweat, handling, training...

-In real life or internet exchange - folks have all the "right" guns, ammo, holsters and such...they do not DO instead they Boast.

I have said it before and many here have agreed. Give me someone with a Model 10, an Old Gov't model, or BHP that is worn, scratched, with standard ammo...the someone has been trained, and keeps trained up to watch my six.

That person is able to defend with the mindset and awareness - if the firearm has to be used - they know how.

I will teach assist with new folks , folks with sincerity - I find ladies and students to be the most receptive and the best students. These are the folks I listen and learn from - these types of students.

The best teachers are the ones that learn from the student.

The rest of the time - I really don't care. I honestly do not care anymore.

If all I had was a model 10 with 158 gr LRN - I would not worry about it.
If all I had was a Gov't 1911 with Ball ammo - I would not worry about it.
If all I have is My P-11 with whatever ammo is in the durn thing... I'd have to look to be honest - I don't worry about it

In fact I don't.

Steve
 
It is NOT the item, it is the knowledge of and intent of user of said item.
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Knowledge and intent are the same. We're talking just caliber here.

If one does not have stones - much less the knowledge of how to use stones- what good is having stones?
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Overly philosophical considering you aren't limited to either caliber.

Basically, you get a B+ for creative writing but C- on the applicable analogy. There's nothing to know, innovate, or apply here. It really is an "all things being equal" type question. It isn't a question of putting an evil AK into a hoplophobe's hands, an elephant gun into a 8 year old girl's, against a blind man with a 1911 and asking "which is best?" like you're trying to make it out. Neither is the debate of caliber short-sighted because it IS a real-world issue, concern, consumer choice even if the "sky is falling".

I dunno, it seems like someone's asking about peach, cherry, or apple pie but you're intent on the talking about veganism. Not really directly pertinent.
 
Caliber

Even though I personally go for Platform first before caliber...

I find it quite interesting the number of trained professionals that do use a .38spl for a BUG, and even some UC use these as primary still today.

The bullet has to be launched from some type of firearm. One has to hit the target . Now if a person cannot manipulate the firearm in a crisis - what good is it? Even with training , one can become injured in real life and cannot operate thier gun. Sickness, injury - whatever, making racking a slide or opening a cylinder difficult.

There is also the problem in a crisis of being hit ( shot) - training again - still a real pisser to operate a gun weak-handed when the BG wants you dead.

Shoot inside a car. Shoot into a car. Use the .38spl and the 9mm .

Now ask youself what is the most "likely" situation you may have to face.

I will tell you I carried FMJ in 9mm because if I were kidnapped in a job I used to do,and needed to fight for my life and shoot through a seat to hit a perp, I knew what a 9mm FMJ would do.

I knew if my window was UP, and the BG ran me off the road ( one trick the Pros like to do) and confronted me at my drivers side with a handgun - a 9mm FMJ would go thru the sheet metal / or through my driver's window.

I based the above on a true event to a Sales Rep, whom was run off I40, the BG ran him off the road, came up on driver's side shot at him thru the drivers glass with .357 loads busted his glass, shot the rep, snatched the keys opened trunk and took the mdse...the sales rep had fired one shot from a snubby .357 loaded with .38spls , thru his door and it never penetrated. He had loaded the gun with .38spls 1) the recoil did not afford him shot to shot placement, 2) he went into businesses, malls and such, he was afraid of overpenetration.

Someone jumps into your car at a stop sign, low pressure rd like a .38spl will work fine and the concerns that some have of over penetration is not there.

I kept 4" Model 10s loaded with 158 gr LSWC - HP in standard pressure scattered about a business to deal with the overpenetration in a business setting.

Yes Sales Rep survived, ( hit in strong side arm) and I took him out and let him shoot wrecked cars and out of them as I done so many times...my training if you will and why I based my caliber, platforms and loading the wayI did. There is difference in reading this stuff and doing this stuff. Sometimes the printed words do not mirror real life.

Makes no nevermind what a shotgun is marked on the bbl, how the choke is marked, what the box of ammo says on the box, what some magazine says, what some guy on the internet says - what does the pattern board say about the loading, and how well did the shooter use the shotgun.

Same applies to .38spl vs 9mm . Applies to every firearm platform, every caliber, every bullet design, ctg loading and you name it.

You gotta test for yourself and know for yourself for task(needed).

I used and still Mr H's test for shooter to determine what they shoot best.

A pc of typing paper folded in half, then folded again. 5 yds, 5 shots, prefer from concealment, low ready is fine. At the signal fire 5 shots. The groups and times will reveal what platform and caliber that shooter does best with.

What about Caliber you ask again? Well lets say LEO officer is retired now. Hundreds of hours of training, thousands of rds downrange - heck he may have defended himself in real life and survived. He know has arthritis, the recoil of .357 he just cannot handle. He tries the .38spl +p , he cannot do that. He tries a semi in 9mm, he cannot load the mag as he used to, racking the slide is difficult now, the safety getting snicked off is difficult, Decocker or DAO ...can't do , especially under stress.

He can operate that K frame with standard 158 gr LSWC - HP. That is HIS best caliber, that is HIS best loading, in HIS best platform and HIS K frame shoots it to POA/ POI.

May not get his name on the internet or the cover of SWAT...but he will be using the caliber best for HIM.

Caliber can be debated until the cows come home - most likely will be.

My take is what task are you most likely going to be dealing with? Based on that choose a platform you shoot best and in a caliber that affords quick accurate hits. There is NO Holy Grail and never will be.

If I had my druthers I'd tote a 12 bore pump gun loaded with slugs, real bitch to conceal and Eric don't make a IWB set up for one...yet... :p ...probably just needs a wee bit more time...

Even so I have to adjust my "caliber" for the task. I have also forgotten to adjust my "caliber" in 12 bore and yes Virginia you can fell Greenheads with 1 oz slugs, and 00 buck...oops. :eek: eww...SPLAT!

Caliber...how many folks bought Model 29s when Dirty Harry Movies were being shown? How many folks bought .44 magnun and quoted all the benefits, quoted all the movie lines?

How many folks went "ouch" and then went to .44spl in them .44 maggies. :D

More to this dealie than caliber...I reserve the right to be wrong tho'. ;)
 
Kojak,

I read your post and really felt that you've been mislead by the information you were exposed to.

Using .22-250 and .45-70 as starting points in inferring how pistol ammo is likely to work is a bit like comparing the energy of the space shuttle and freight train to decide what weight of bowling ball to buy. This stuff does not neatly scale up and down.

The other problem is that there isn't a credible source of "stopping power" information (the Marshall stuff is pure crap from a statistics/science standpoint), and that information doesn't tell us why one round performs as it does. Again, inferring generalities from such information is, at best, misleading.

The best information about the comparison between 9 and .38 is contained in Caleb's post. When you compare similarities, what do you get?
 
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