38 Special . . . 38 Super . . .the diff is . . . ?

The auto pistol cartridge was called "Super .38" when it was introduced, and though virtually everyone now calls it ".38 Super", Colt barrels are still rolled with the original name.
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The gun Colt introduced in 1929 was named Super 38, not the cartridge. That gun, the 1911 chambered in .38 caliber, was chambered in 38 Automatic. The 38 Automatic at the time pushed a 130 grain bullet to 1190 fps. See Colt ads at the time at this link:

http://38super.net/Pages/History.html

The 38 Super cartridge did not emerge until around 1932-1933 when Remington upped the velocity to 1300 fps.
 
Did you buy a box of 38 super for your special or a box of 38 special for your super....
They're all 38's right ! What's the diff !
 
The auto pistol cartridge was called "Super .38" when it was introduced, and though virtually everyone now calls it ".38 Super", Colt barrels are still rolled with the original name.

The gun Colt introduced in 1929 was named Super 38, not the cartridge. That gun, the 1911 chambered in .38 caliber, was chambered in 38 Automatic. The 38 Automatic at the time pushed a 130 grain bullet to 1190 fps. See Colt ads at the time at this link:

http://38super.net/Pages/History.html

The 38 Super cartridge did not emerge until around 1932-1933 when Remington upped the velocity to 1300 fps.
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Yeah, I've read the "there is some evidence" stuff on the topic.
 
It's much easier to list what's the same between them. That would be the number "38". Everything else is different, including the bullet diameter.
 
Yeah, I've read the "there is some evidence" stuff on the topic.
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Read Colt's advertisements and catalogs from that era. That's all the evidence needed. The gun was chambered for the 38 Automatic. Colt said so.
 
44 AMP

Until a few years ago all 38 Super ammo was loaded in nickel cases to keep it separate from 38 ACP ammo loaded in brass cases. Supers were also labeled as +P on the box. Then I noticed Super ammo coming in brass cases. I fired some Winchester 130 grain FMJ over my Chroney and got 1080. Not much more than the old 38 ACP. I believe they gave in to lawyer fears of Supers being fired in an old 38 ACP gun.
 
Until a few years ago all 38 Super ammo was loaded in nickel cases to keep it separate from 38 ACP ammo loaded in brass cases. Supers were also labeled as +P on the box. Then I noticed Super ammo coming in brass cases. I fired some Winchester 130 grain FMJ over my Chroney and got 1080. Not much more than the old 38 ACP. I believe they gave in to lawyer fears of Supers being fired in an old 38 ACP gun.
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Winchester or everybody?
 
. I fired some Winchester 130 grain FMJ over my Chroney and got 1080
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This got me thinking, even with the availability of chronographs at reasonable cost today, are we not once again (or STILL?) basically at the mercy of what ammo makers SAY they are producing, vs. what we actually get??

I do agree that for generations (US produced, anyway) .38 SUPER used nickel cases, .38ACP came in brass cases. Might not have been any kind of industry "standard" but it was what everyone did, back then, anyway...

SO, out of curiosity, I went to the Midway site, to see what they had (and was looking for pictures of the rounds, which Midway often has..)

Found some interesting, and somewhat conflicting information.

Fiocchi lists their 130gr FMJ at 1180fps, and it comes in BRASS cases.

Rem-UMC is listed at 1215fps for 130gr FMJ, and while the picture shows a nickel case, the data section says the case is brass.

Winchester also listed at 1215fps for 130gr FMJ, and nickel cases.

The Fiocchi box says "38 SUPERAUTO"
Remington and Winchester boxes say "38 SUPER AUTO +P"

There is also the question about the accuracy of the 1920s and 30s claims of MV for both .38 ACP and Super rounds. Not about what is in print, that we can see, but about what was actually coming out of the muzzles back then.

Ammo and gun makers of the past have a long established ..."tendency to embellish" their claims. It was, after all, part of the culture of the era.

Add in the real world results we get today, differences in velocity (as much as 100fps between individual guns with the same barrel length, while not common, does happen), and differences in barrel lengths between test guns and "street" guns, and nearly any variation of velocity is possible.

I was impressed with the data section for the Buffalo Bore ammo (on Midway) they gave velocity of their ammo in 3 different actual guns (not test barrels), 2 were 5", one was shorter, 4.3".

124gr JHP, 1356fps, 1359fps, and 1329fps. Their ammo is brass cased.

No matter what the maker prints on the box, if you don't get 1200fps + with a 130gr from a 5" (1911A1) I wouldn't call the ammo "Super" anything. :rolleyes:
 
I have a 1911 series 70 Gov model. It has a custom Bar Sto stainless barrel and micro sights. I've only fired one box of .38sup Win, IIRC, and they were extremely accurate. I never did chronograph them, however. I load up both .38acp loads and .38sup loads. The cast bullet acp rounds use a 140 grain home cast bullet at around 1040 fps. A super load with 115 grain JHP bullets gives some 1280 fps. I still need to experiment some more and see what kind of higher velocities I can find. The acp handload will work the slide and the cases just "roll" out of the ejection port and pile up at my feet. The super load flings them off a ways. I like the caliber and the 1911 and the super round can encroach into .357 territory whereas that would strain the .38spl and/or be damaging to the gun and possibly the shooter.
 
Now the Super is weak knee down loaded to less than 1,100 FPS because of older guns in 38 ACP not made for high pressures.
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There's PLENTY of .38Super ammo that meets or even exceeds the original quoted spec. The loads that don't make 1100fps are, by far, the exception rather than the rule.

The data in the first link provided by 74A95 lists 30-40 loads chronoed in a 5" Colt and only one of them (sold as a "Match load") measured under 1100fps. Most were over 1200 and about a quarter of them exceeded 1400fps.

Moving this thread to General Handguns.
 
You're not the only one that should be seeking the answer to that question Prof. Young.

I was at Wally World a few weeks ago. Saw they had some WWB 38 Super ammo in stock and decided to buy a box. The woman at the gun counter was sure I was confused about what I wanted and did not want sell me the ammo. She was sure 38 Super ammo=38 Special ammo and did not even want to get it out of the case. After considerable effort on my part, she finally relented and put it on the counter, warning me that I could not return it if it was the wrong kind. I don't expect every Walmart employee to be an expert on everything, but that was a struggle. I'd bet that if I went in again to buy the same ammo from the same woman, the same struggle would ensue.

BTW, For better or worse, I've been a 38 Super shooter for a very long time, and have chronographed a bunch of the stuff. Always interested in these discussions/debates;) as to actual 38 Super ballistics.

For any that might be interested, a few recent chronograph results with factory ammo fired in a Colt 38 Super with factory 5" barrel: Armscor 125 grain ball=1130 FPS, Remington 130 grain ball=1251 FPS, Winchester 130 grain ball (newer flat point type)=1212 FPS, Winchester 130 grain ball (older RN type)=1163 FPS, SIG V-Crown 125 grain JHP=1267 FPS, Underwood 124 grain JHP=*1268 FPS (*ammo from a second shipment averaged 1296 FPS), GECO 124 grain ball=1346 FPS.
 
According to Douglas G. Sheldons book, by 1931 ammo for the Super .38 Colt , was marked .38 Super Automatic Colt.
In April of 1930 Smith & Wesson countered with the .38/44 N frame revolver. Hot cartridge, 158gr bullet at 1150fps. They had some really neat metal piercing round for it too. This info from Mullins Magnum book.
 
One's Super, and the other is Special...

The .38 Special was originally a blackpowder revolver cartridge developed in the late 1800s by Smith & Wesson.

The .38 Super was developed by Colt as an uploaded and more powerful version of John Browning's .38 ACP cartridge.

The .38 Super was developed originally in response to a call from US police agencies for more powerful handguns that would allow them to better take on criminals in the heavy-bodied cars at the time. Or so the story goes.

The S&W uploaded version of the .38 Special, the .38-44 Heavy Duty, was essentially developed for the same purpose.
 
The first appearance of the .38 Special was in the S&W Military and Police Model 1899; while originally tested with black powder, I believe it was actually made for distribution only with smokeless.

Of interest is that some revolvers chambered for .38 Special and quite a few chambered for .38 S&W will accept and fire .38 Super cartridges, a much higher pressure, and potentially dangerous, load.

Jim
 
"The first appearance of the .38 Special was in the S&W Military and Police Model 1899; while originally tested with black powder, I believe it was actually made for distribution only with smokeless."

Sorry, Jim, but you're absolutely wrong in that.


The .38 Special was offered both in smokeless and black powder loadings until around World War I.

The 1901 UMC catalog (found on this page http://cartridgecollectors.org/ammunition-catalogs/UMC) shows on page 11 the .38 Special with a 158-gr. bullet and loaded with 21.5 grains of powder. We know this is black powder for two reasons:

1. The original load, as developed by S&W and UMC, called for 21.5 grains of black powder.

2. There is a separate section of the catalog, starting on page 23, listing UMC's Smokeless Powder ammunition. The .38 Special is NOT listed in this section as work was apparently continuing on developing smokeless loads for it.


The 1903 UMC price list shows both black powder AND smokeless powder loadings offered for sale.



By 1910 UMC had been purchased by Remington Arms.

The 1910 catalog (same page as above) is absolutely gorgeous, and shows on page 84 that the company was still offering .38 Special cartridges in both black powder and smokeless powder loadings.

Even more interesting is the information on page 86, which list's ".38 Colt's Special" cartridges (simply Colt's name in place of S&W's, otherwise the same cartridge), being offered in both black powder and smokeless.


Finally, we get to the other Special round... the .44 Special -- on page 90.

As with the .38 Special, S&W developed it as a black powder cartridge. It was the last cartridge so developed, and was released in 1907.

It was also offered in both black powder and smokeless loadings until around World War I.
 
Well, this is interesting...

I just looked at the 1923 Remington Arms Catalog, and the .38 Special was STILL being offered in both black powder and smokeless powder loads.

That's later than I though...

I had originally though that black powder loadings had been discontinued for .38 Special right around World War I, but it's looking more like they were dropped closer to the Great Depression.

Yep, the 1929 Jobber's Wholesale Price catalog still shows a single black powder load for .38 Special....
 
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