.38 S&W short cartridge question

Howdy

As has been stated, there is no such thing as 38 S&W Short, although some folks call it that. Clearly, Fiocchi did not get the memo.

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Here is a 38 S&W on the left and a 38 Special on the right. As has been stated, bullet diameter for 38 S&W is officially .360, but I have had success loading the cartridge with some .359 diameter bullets. Also, the case is slightly larger in diameter than 38 Special, so if chambers are in spec a 38 S&W cartridge should not chamber in a 38 Special revolver.

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Smith and Wesson developed the 38 S&W cartridge in 1876 for their 38 Single Action, 1st Model, also known as the Baby Russian.

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This 38 Double Action, chambered for 38 S&W, shipped in 1898.

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These 38 Double Action Perfected models shipped between 1912 and 1917.

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The I frame was slightly smaller than the K frame. When chambered for a 38, the cylinder was not large enough for six chambers. The five shot 38 Regulation Police at the top of this photo shipped in 1924. The six shot 32 Regulation Police below it shipped in 1925.

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Yes, Smith and Wesson shipped over 500,000 K frame Victory models chambered for the 38 S&W cartridge to England between 1940 and 1945. These were made for a slightly more powerful version of the 38 S&W cartridge, using a 200 grain bullet. Many of these were rechambered for 38 Special when they returned to the US, but they are poor conversions because the rear of the chambers will have the larger diameter chambers for the 38 S&W cartridge while the lengthened part of the chambers will be slightly narrower for 38 Special brass. The wider section at the rear of the chambers often causes 38 Special brass to split.
 
I've got a early 70's S&W model 32 and a late 50's Webley MkIV that take
38 S&W. Fun little guns---and it's an easy cartridge to reload.
 
There are a whole bunch of nice 38S&W handguns out there that are a whole bunch less expensive that that example.

Personally, I am a fan of 38S&W and have quite a few revolvers chambered for it.
 
Hang on to the 38 S&W ammo (it is a short round but you don't call it a short ...just 38 S&W ) The old top break S&W revolvers and the few swing out models made aren't high on the collectors list . One in used condition are easy to come by with a little looking around and careful shopping . As of a few years ago $100.00 to $150.00 would buy a decent shooter .
I have a S&W Double Action 4th model , passed down from grandfather, ammo used to be easy to find ... not many people shoot 38 S&W so ammo tends to sit on a dealers shelf ...till someone buys it by mistake .
Lots of these 38 S&W top breaks spend their entire lives in a dressor drawer .
A fried inherited his mom's ... I thought it was refinished because it looked so perfectly new ...nope , no refinish just lived in the top drawer .
Mine was used by grandfather to take small game during the Great Depression ...
Mom said if it hadn't been for the wild game he killed with it they would have starved slap to death !
Keep the ammo and find a top break ... they are fun shooters !
Gary
 
.38 S&W

Three in .38 S&W

A WW2 Webley mk.IV.
A Forehand and Wadsworth and a British Bulldog
 

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Smith & Wesson was still making .38 S&W chambered revolvers into the 1970s or early 1980s, mostly J frames.

They made some K frames on special order for the Royal Hong Kong Police in, IIRC, 1981 or so. You can occasionally find those but prices have jumped QUITE a bit over the last few years.
 
For the last few days my carry has been my Webley IV in 38S&W that was an ex-Singapore Police Force revolver. It's in a Bucheimer Perfect Fit B7 holster and both were made in the late 1950s.
 

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I have a prewar No. 2 Mk.1 and a Colt Police Positive, would be fun to load some 200 grain bullets, duplicate the original British load. Later they adopted a 178 grain cupro-nickel bullet to comply with The Hague Convention.
 
The Lyman bullet mold #358430 drops a 195 grain bullet at .360” (wheel weight alloy). These shoot very nicely from my MK.IV.
I have an NEI mold that drops 200 grain bullets in the same pattern as the British .380/200 loading. Unfortunately, NEI is long gone.
 
I started reading this thread while I was away from my house and it got me wondering but I didn't want to say anything until I got back and checked.

I have half a box of .38 CBC Special Short, but for some reason as this thread was going on I thought the box just said .38 short and I spent the last week wondering how I got half a box of .38 S&W through a 642 a few years ago. Turns out I didn't. But add the CBC short round to the list of possibly confusing .38 rounds.
 
Just as with the discussion about the .45 Colt vs .45 Long Colt, the .38 S&W has also been known as the .38 S&W Short (the same with the .32 S&W).

All part of the rich tapestry of the development and history of the self-contained metallic cartridge.

Bit of interesting history about the .380-200 round that the British adopted in 1926.

As originally adopted, it did have a 200-gr. lead round nose bullet.

But, a few years later, concern mounted about the all lead bullet and the new jacketed Mk II bullet round was adopted with a bullet weight of 170 grs.

Given the low priority that the British placed on handguns and handgun rounds, when war broke out in 1939 existing ammunition supplies were completely inadequate for the war. Many British officers went to Europe with 12 rounds of the Mk I ammunition in their kit.

Domestic production of .380 revolver ammunition couldn't keep pace with the need, so the British contracted with Dominion in Canada and American companies to provide whatever .380 ammunition that they could.

The British received hundreds of thousands of 145-gr. lead bullet loads from Western and other US companies, as well as 200-gr. lead bullet loads. Essentially, they were taking whatever they could get.

No clue if any of that ammo ever made it into combat or if it was held back for training.
 
Mike Irwin said:
Bit of interesting history about the .380-200 round that the British adopted in 1926.

As originally adopted, it did have a 200-gr. lead round nose bullet.

But, a few years later, concern mounted about the all lead bullet and the new jacketed Mk II bullet round was adopted with a bullet weight of 170 grs.
Click to expand...

According to Wikipedia, the proper designation is .38/200. The .380 is assigned to the .380 Mk II or .380 Mk IIz.

The .38/200 was designated Mk I.

Also, the FMJ bullet was 180 grains, not 170.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_S&W
 
micromontenegro said:
Somebody has to say it: there's no such a thing as .38 S&W short. It's called .38 S&W, period. And it's a fun cartridge for the reloader.
Click to expand...
Thanks ... if you didn't do it ... I was going to !
Although the 38 S&W cartridge is rather length challenged...don't call it short .
It's just the 38 Smith & Wesson or 38 S&W .

Rule #1 ... never pass up an excuse to buy a firearm . I've bought guns simply because I had a set of reloading dies ... a box of ammo is a great excuse , don't waste it .
Gary
 
ok, in a nutshell and skipping a lot of details for brevity,

.38 LONG COLT introduced in 1875. Developed from the earlier .38 Short Colt (for which I have not yet found a valid introduction date. .38 Long colt same dimensions as the .38 short colt but longer case.

Adopted by the US Army in 1892.

.38 S&W introduced in 1877. Shorter, fatter case than the .38 Long Colt. Also known as the .38 Colt New Police when loaded with a flat point bullet and the .38/200 when loaded for the British with the 200gr bullet. NEVER any "short" or "long" attached to the cartridge name.

when the guns and ammo are in proper spec, the .38 S&W will not fit in a .38 Long Colt gun, its too fat. And a .38 Long Colt will not fit in a .38 S&W gun, its too long. Yes, there are real world exceptions not everything in the real world is to book specs.

.38 Special (originally .38 S&W Special) introduced in 1899. Same rim, head, and case body dimensions as the .38 Long Colt, but a longer case length. Also will not fit in .38 S&W or vice versa (when things are in proper spec)

And if you want to carry the line out even further, add the .357 Magnum and the .357 Maximum as the more modern end of the family. All these rounds share the same rim, head size and case body diameter, only differing in case length (and the pressures they are loaded to)

The oddball is the .38 S&W. its case body is about .005" FATTER than the others. It was not developed from an earilier round and never spawned any family of its own, only a few different names for the same case when different people loaded it with different bullets.

There is a lot of confusion and mistakes made with the names of the early ,38 and .32 cal revolver rounds.

So, to be clear, while the .38 S&W is a short case, the word "short" was never part of its name.
 
"According to Wikipedia, the proper designation is .38/200. The .380 is assigned to the .380 Mk II or .380 Mk IIz.

The .38/200 was designated Mk I."


Yep. I was typing for simplicity's sake, not exactitude...


"Also, the FMJ bullet was 180 grains, not 170."

Typo.
 
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