358 Winchester vs. 338 Winchester Magnum

The .358 is no slouch. Crankylove even hunts Antelope with his. (It's over-kill, but wickedly effective.)

On paper, the .358 Winchester looks like a piddly reminder of the "dark ages" of cartridge development.

In reality, it is more than most hunters will ever need in their lifetime.


The .338 Win Mag? Meh... A waste of powder. A waste of energy. Unnecessarily punishing to the shooter. (It's perfectly manageable, but even .338-06 is quite respectable - without the extra recoil. The "upgrade" to .338 Win Mag is just more recoil and a trivial velocity increase.)


The only real argument against .358 Win: For non-reloaders, ammunition is a nightmare. (Good luck finding it.) But, as a reloader, you don't have to worry about that. ;)
 
Well I never bothered to shoot any of my cheap or plentiful 158-gr. bullets out of the .35 Remington that I used to have, so I'd have to say that that is a call out to a false economy.
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Not really, false economy doesn't apply here. A 158 gr 9mm pill from the 358 Win is a perfectly adequate deer load (will do everything a 150 grain pill from a 30-30 will do). If you want to step up to heavier rifle bullets for bear, big hogs, or elk, then there are plenty of .358 rifle bullets on the market.

So cheaper to reload = more practice for less money. That is definitely NOT a "false economy."

Jimro
 
Yeah, false economy was the wrong term.

I should have said "For me, it was a non-existent "benefit.""

I've known many people who have owned .35-caliber rifles of one stripe or another AND .38/.357 handguns and who have regularly reloaded for those cartridges.

Yet, of them, I've known but ONE person who has loaded pistol bullets in their rifles.

If you have no inclination to do it, for whatever reason, then it's not a benefit.

As someone else mentioned, as well, there's also a far better selection of .338 caliber bullets available for reloading.

The .35s generally are decent cartridges, but in my view they are severely handicapped by the variety and selection of bullets that are on the market.

Pistol bullets don't do much to alieviate those selection issues.


In short, were I given the choice between a rifle chambered in one of the .338 cartridges, or one of the .35 cartridges, and all things about the rifle (price, weight, etc.) were roughly equal, I'd choose the .338 every time, hands down.
 
I understand completely, the 338 bore is an excellent choice for a medium bore rifle. The availability of a plethora of premium bullets for reloading (as well as premium factory ammo) makes the 338 Federal a good choice for someone who is more into hunting than shooting. But the old 35 caliber medium bores will probably never go away, too many satisfied 358 Win and 35 Whelen shooters out there :-)

Jimro
 
As someone else mentioned, as well, there's also a far better selection of .338 caliber bullets available for reloading.

The .35s generally are decent cartridges, but in my view they are severely handicapped by the variety and selection of bullets that are on the market.
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I understand where you are coming from, but how many 35 caliber bullets does there need to be? Sure the .338 has a better selection but how many bullets do you run through them. I usually try a few and when I find a bullet that works that is what I stick with. And I own the .358 Win and .35 Whelen and I agree that it is pointless to run pistol bullets down them. If I need a cheap plinking bullet I'll buy some cast bullets to shoot out of it.

In a bolt action .358 Win my bullet of choice would be the 225 grain Nosler Accubond. It has a pretty decent BC and SD, and it should get the job done at about any range most hunters shoot. I sure wish I could run them in my .358 but I have magazine length issues with the Savage 99A so I'll stick to 180 and 200 grain bullets in it.

Ruger offered bot .358 Win and .338 Fed in the M77 Frontier rifle, and IIRC they offered it in the Hawkeye until last year and they dropped it. Don't worry though I'm sure they will bring it back in a few years. Ruger seems to understand there will always be a guy looking for a .358 Win. It is a niche cartridge but it fills it very well.
 
Bullets is like guns.

More is better. Lots more is even lots better!

One of the main disadvantages to .35 caliber bullets is that finding anything other than round nose bullets for the .35 Remington and tube magazines can be something of a chore at times.

There have probably been dozens to hundreds of times more .35 Remington lever actions made than either .35 Whelens or .358 Remingtons, and that's reflected in just about ever gunshop I've ever been in that has carried reloading supplies.

Hi, I need some .35 caliber spire points, please!

We've got round noses. Five different makers. You can't shoot spire points out of a lever action.

But, I don't have a lever action! I have a bolt action .35.

Oh, a fancy man shooter, not good enough to shoot the common man's rifle? You want some gold leaf for that?

Uh... no, I just want...

Get gone, fancy man, or I'll set my coon hounds on you!


OK, maybe it's not THAT bad, but generally it's not great. :)
 
There have probably been dozens to hundreds of times more .35 Remington lever actions made than either .35 Whelens or .358 Remingtons, and that's reflected in just about ever gunshop I've ever been in that has carried reloading supplies.

Hi, I need some .35 caliber spire points, please!
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The problem with that statement is who the heck buys their reloading supplies at a LGS? I've been reloading since 1982 and I have NEVER bought any component bullets in an LGS. I've looked at them on occasion. Then I start laughing at their prices. I'm not willing to pay double the price that Graf's or other online place charges. And those online places sell stuff to me for wholesale prices since I have a C&R. Never been in a LGS where they would lower the prices if I pulled out my C&R!

So if you are ordering your bullets online.... there is plenty available. The Sierra 225 grain GameKing can do 90% of what you need. The Nosler Partition is made in .358" in two different weights. Figure out which one you like the best and buy a hundred or so. I know it's fun to be able to buy all kinds of fancy super tech bullets but the truth is that the super tech bullets were largely created to allow small diameter (or lightweight) bullets to be used on larger game than you would expect. If you are shooting deer with a .350 RM, the 225 grain Sierra BTSP GameKing doesn't need any fancy tricks. It goes in and makes a big hole. It expands perfectly. It blows a big hole out the other side. You cut the deer open and pour the liquified guts out. You want to hunt an elk or a bear, go back and get the Partitions.

And I own the .358 Win and .35 Whelen and I agree that it is pointless to run pistol bullets down them. If I need a cheap plinking bullet I'll buy some cast bullets to shoot out of it.
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I used to fire those 158 grain Sierra bullets at considerably above 3000 fps. I've yet to see the cast bullets that will give you those kinds of numbers. And the cast bullets at moderate velocities won't give you the exploding vermin entertainment that I found so amusing in my youth!

Gregg
 
I used to fire those 158 grain Sierra bullets at considerably above 3000 fps. I've yet to see the cast bullets that will give you those kinds of numbers. And the cast bullets at moderate velocities won't give you the exploding vermin entertainment that I found so amusing in my youth!
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That is why I own rifles for shooting vermin like the .204 Ruger, .223, 6x47, .243 Win and .25-06 Rem. All provied above 3000+ fps and explode vermin nicely at longer ranges and any 158 grain bullet out of a .35 cal will.
 
"The problem with that statement is who the heck buys their reloading supplies at a LGS?"

Hum...

Well, the OBVIOUS answer is that a fair number of people still buy reloading supplies at local gun stores.

If the stock just sat there, year after year, taking up space and not moving, any gunshop owner with a half a brain cell would convert that space to something that actually helped him make a profit.

I've been reloading since 1977, and for the first dozen or so years I bought virtually all of my reloading supplies from my local gun shop.

Why did I buy there? Because the prices were good, as good as anything Midway had to offer in their early days.

These days I buy most of my reloading supplies at gun shows. Maybe a little more expensive than Graf or Midway, but I don't have to wait for it.


"I've yet to see the cast bullets that will give you those kinds of numbers."

I had a coworker at NRA who routinely shot cast bullets from a rifle at 3,000 FPS and better, and did so with excellent accuracy and zero leading.

Guess how he did it.
 
I've always wondered about the statement "There is a better selection of bullets in 338 than 358.". First, let me say it's true. Midway has three pages of 358 bullets, in weights from 180 to 310 grain and that's less than 338's five pages. However, there's a 358 bullet for every reasonable use you could come up with. (Not to mention the pistol bullets, so I won't. :p)
 
Heck if you want the best selection of bullets you need to stick with 30 caliber rounds...

Always makes you wonder how the 270 Win stayed popular for decades with only two bullet weight choices, 130 grain or 150 grain. Heck, reloaders were swaging down 140gr 7mm bullets for years just to have that option.

Jimro
 
"Always makes you wonder how the 270 Win stayed popular for decades with only two bullet weight choices"

A couple of reasons for that...

1. Jack O'Connor. He was a highly respected gun writer, and his word carried a lot of weight in the firearms community. Had he never taken a shine to the .270, I'd bet it would be a minor footnote in cartridge history.

2. It was the only thing going in its class for a LONG time. At the time the .270 came out its closest competitor performance wise was probably the .250 Savage, and it's quite a bit below the ballistics that the .270 can churn out.



"Paper patching?"

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner! It was very interesting the first time I saw my coworker drive a paper patched cast lead bullet out of his .300 Win. Mag. at well over 3,000 fps. And turn in a 100 yard group of just over an inch doing it.
 
Yeah, Jack O'Connor was a huge fan of the 270. Interesting historical tidbit, the man who took possession of Jack O'Connor's reloading scale noticed that it was consistently two grains heavy. So all those "hot" 270 loads O'Connor was known for were not so "hot" after all.

Heck, ballistically the 7mm Express (or 280 Remington) should have wiped the 270 off the map, but Remington kept it low pressure for ease of extraction in pump action rifles. The round got off to a bad start and has never recovered.

Jimro
 
"So all those "hot" 270 loads O'Connor was known for were not so "hot" after all."

Given the powders of the day, primarily IMR, 2 grains really isn't that much. IMR powders are extremely forgiving and, to a degree, pretty unresponsive in terms of increasing the powder charge vs increasing chamber pressure.

When I was working up loads for my .243 I found a good baseline load that was about 75 to 80% of book max. I kept creeping the load up a half grain at a time until I was almost 3 grains over book max, at which point that load locked in a became a tack driver.

Velocity wasn't much higher than the book max load had been and there were zero signs of pressure.

I've had similar experiences with .30-06 over the years, as well.

Winchester ball powders are a LOT more sensitive to small increases in charge weight.


The primary reason the .280/7mm Express got off to a slow start and is largely moribund is because Remington gave Winchester a 50-year head start before bringing out a cartridge that mirrored the ballistics of one of the most popular cartridges in the country.

Even had the .280 trumphed the .270 ballistically, I'd bet the overall result would be much the same simply because the .270 solidified its popularity and reputation years before. That kind of thing is hard to overcome.

Remington has a long history of screwing the pooch when it comes to cartridge introductions, either through really poor timing (the .280) or through totally misinterpreting the desires of the shooting public (.244/6mm).

Of course they did have the success of the 7mm Rem. Mag.
 
That is why I own rifles for shooting vermin like the .204 Ruger, .223, 6x47, .243 Win and .25-06 Rem. All provied above 3000+ fps and explode vermin nicely at longer ranges and any 158 grain bullet out of a .35 cal will.
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And that's what I do today. But I'm 49 now and a serious gun collector. In 1985 I had a 12 gauge Remington 1100, a Ruger 10/22, a Ruger Security Six, a Ruger MKII .22 LR, and a Lee/Enfield Jungle Carbine. I bought the Remington 700 to be my all around big game rifle. I had this crazy idea that someday I would be going elk or bear hunting. Never has happened and I guess it never will. But in any case, it was the only modern centerfire rifle I had. So I pressed it into service on many fronts. I used reloading to make that happen. I probably never shot a coyote or other vermin with that rifle that was over 100 yards away. Most of the time they were more like 50 yards away. And I killed a lot of big turtles in ponds and strip pits. Most of those were 20-40 yards away. I just needed reasonable accuracy with explosive expansion. The .350 RM did the job with those pistol bullets.

You guys are losing sight of what I was trying to say. The statement was made by more than one person.... "it's pointless to use pistol bullets" in these .35 caliber cartridges. I'm telling you my personal history to demonstrate that it was NOT pointless. They had a use. I used them. It's unlikely I was the only individual in the entire country that used them that way. I was trying to submit evidence that such absolute and blanket statements were wrong. Not trying to argue that we should all start using .350 RM rifles for varmints! But sometimes you use what you have rather than just going out and buying another rifle. Back then I really believed in that old saying, "Fear the man with only one rifle. He probably knows how to use it!"

Gregg
 
OK, just to be clear, please don't for a moment think that I'm saying it's pointless to use pistol bullets in .35-caliber cartridges.

If you or someone else finds a point to it, then it works for you.

I, however, never found a reason or need to shoot pistol bullets out of my .35 Remington.

Just for comparison's sake, I used to load .32 Long bullets in my .300 Savage with light charges of Red Dot. I just that load to GREAT effect on fall squirrels in Pennsylvania.


"Not trying to argue that we should all start using .350 RM rifles for varmints!"

Why not? I used to hunt ground hogs with a .300 Weatherby Magnum. Used one to make the longest shot on game I ever made -- approximately 425 yards.
 
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