breakthrough
Moderator
is this caliber going to go mainstream? why is it so uncommon? how is it different from others meaning what can it do that others can't? thanks
.357 sig
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It’s a very specialized round, that was developed to create a 9 M/M round that preformed like a .357 Magnum round. So it creates lots of power, but the tradeoffs are several. Muzzle blast, a sharp recoil, and problems with over penetration. Along with this I don’t believe that there is a wide selection of pistols chambered for this round.
The North Carolina State Troopers were issued these at one time. The reason was the possible need to stop at a fleeing vehicle.
I also believe that the “Air Marshals” were issued pistols chambered for this round, and were at the same time were issued a reduced power load to avoid over penetration in an aircraft; only the government
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The North Carolina State Troopers were issued these at one time. The reason was the possible need to stop at a fleeing vehicle.
I also believe that the “Air Marshals” were issued pistols chambered for this round, and were at the same time were issued a reduced power load to avoid over penetration in an aircraft; only the government
?Fans of the .357 SIG point out that it has great penetrating power, which is important if you anticipate the need to shoot at bad guys through truck doors I guess.
The report is very loud and there is considerable muzzle flash. The ammunition is typically quite expensive compared to other common handgun calibers, and it can be hard to find locally. If it is available, ammunition choices are usually limited. I don't reload, but I have read that the bottleneck cartridge design can be more difficult to reload.
For me the disadvantages far outweigh any potential advantages and I have never had any interest in it.
The report is very loud and there is considerable muzzle flash. The ammunition is typically quite expensive compared to other common handgun calibers, and it can be hard to find locally. If it is available, ammunition choices are usually limited. I don't reload, but I have read that the bottleneck cartridge design can be more difficult to reload.
For me the disadvantages far outweigh any potential advantages and I have never had any interest in it.
Ballistically, it's a great round. I've only fired one once (a friend's Glock 23 - I think, not 100% sure of the model - with a Lone Wolf drop-in conversion barrel); and it was a real pleasure. I'm no recoil junky, but I liked the stout/quick recoil. It left no doubt I had something potent in hand; yet, was still controllable. I was pleased. I would carry one - with confidence (assuming extensive practice went well).
Drawbacks: Ammo is hard to find, and expensive. Ammo is a little more tricky to reload than other strait walled (or "straightish," like 9mm) handgun cartridges. This isn't the reloading section, so I'll keep it brief: It's not really much different. But it involves more steps and there's proper seating tension considerations. Enough for some to see it as a bit intimidating.
The "caliber first" crowd (those who believe "a bigger hole is a better hole."), tend toward the much more popular 40 S&W. Now I know the 40 has less muzzle energy than the Sig (usually); but to say that makes them an "apples n oranges" comparison is something that has more credence on paper than reality. Fact is, both are effective with proper shot placement. And the 40 is more easily controlled.
The short answer as to why the Sig isn't more popular, is that the 40 S&W is sucking up all the oxygen in the "caliber other than 9mm" room. It's doing the same with 10mm Auto too. Now that's my favorite semi-auto chambering (I'm actually a revolver guy - prefer to carry my 357 Mag). But I digress. Not wanting to change the subject.
Drawbacks: Ammo is hard to find, and expensive. Ammo is a little more tricky to reload than other strait walled (or "straightish," like 9mm) handgun cartridges. This isn't the reloading section, so I'll keep it brief: It's not really much different. But it involves more steps and there's proper seating tension considerations. Enough for some to see it as a bit intimidating.
The "caliber first" crowd (those who believe "a bigger hole is a better hole."), tend toward the much more popular 40 S&W. Now I know the 40 has less muzzle energy than the Sig (usually); but to say that makes them an "apples n oranges" comparison is something that has more credence on paper than reality. Fact is, both are effective with proper shot placement. And the 40 is more easily controlled.
The short answer as to why the Sig isn't more popular, is that the 40 S&W is sucking up all the oxygen in the "caliber other than 9mm" room. It's doing the same with 10mm Auto too. Now that's my favorite semi-auto chambering (I'm actually a revolver guy - prefer to carry my 357 Mag). But I digress. Not wanting to change the subject.
carguychris
New member
Define "mainstream".breakthrough said:
Some niche calibers have survived a very long time, e.g. .44 Special.
It does little that 9mm Luger won't do, while typically giving up 2-4 rounds of capacity in an automatic pistol, and simultaneously falling short of true .357 Magnum power levels with heavier bullets and longer barrels.breakthrough said:
It also uses a bottleneck case, making it more expensive to manufacture than handgun rounds with a straight-sided or straight-tapered case.
It's better at penetrating steel car bodies and auto glass than other auto-pistol cartridges that fit within a standard medium-size pistol frame using a 10+ round capacity double-stack magazine. This is the reason why most agencies to adopt it have been state police forces responsible for highway patrol.breakthrough said:
With 2 important caveats: (a) using 125 grain or lighter bullets and (b) a 4" or shorter barrel. It's can't perform like .357 Magnum out of a 6" or longer barrel, and the .357 Sig case is physically too small to safely handle ~130gr or larger bullets unless it's downloaded somewhat.old bear said:
Evil Monkey
New member
There is 9mm +P so what's the point?
About the only cool thing about these bottle necked cartridges like the 357sig is that they can have a variety of bullet shapes and never fail-to-feed, unless it's magazine related.
About the only cool thing about these bottle necked cartridges like the 357sig is that they can have a variety of bullet shapes and never fail-to-feed, unless it's magazine related.
That's a fair question.
But make no mistake: 357 Sig is a good deal more potent than 9mm +P.
My 9mm carry piece has Speer +P's in it. So I'm not knocking your point in terms of the real world. I'm just pointing out that the Speer 124 +P chronos 1182 f/s through my 3.7" bbl - call it 1200, to keep numbers round. The same bullet in 357 Sig will crank out 1400 or so. Again, keeping the numbers round, that's about 400 ft/lbs of muzzle energy, vs. about 535 ft/lbs. That's a big difference.
Of course, that's all just fun with numbers. Shot placement is everything . . .
I think Texas DPS issues weapons in .357 SiG. I guess their thought was to deliver .357 Mag(ish) power in a semi-automatic sidearm.
If they wanted that, a 1911A1 in 9x23mm Winchester would have been closer to the mark. Magazine capacities for the 9x23W appear to vary, but should be close to what .357 SiG pistols hold. Ballistics for the 9x23 exceed the SiG's by a considerable margin.
If they wanted that, a 1911A1 in 9x23mm Winchester would have been closer to the mark. Magazine capacities for the 9x23W appear to vary, but should be close to what .357 SiG pistols hold. Ballistics for the 9x23 exceed the SiG's by a considerable margin.
Deaf Smith
New member
Still is used by quite a few LEO organizations. And if you go to gun shots you will see some .357 Sig ammo in most of the stores.
So maybe it is 'mainstream'. I see it about as often as I see .38 Spl. around here and actually more than I see 10mm.
Deaf
Its basically just a tad hotter than 9mm +P+. Maybe about 100fps or so. Nothing really monumental or spectacular.
I was really into 357SIG for a number of years, and had a number of pistols in the caliber. As much as I liked it, I came to realize, I could get close enough to to power wise, with the 9mm +P+, and 9mm was a bit more versatile and a lot cheaper, especially past the first Obama term.
I never found it to be flashy, even indoors. It was a bit louder than other things, but not really all that bad. Recoil is basically the same as +P+ out of the same gun, and I doubt you could tell the difference between them if you didnt know what you were shooting.
My SIG's didnt seem to mind the round at all, and showed no signs of wear. My Glock 31 on the other hand, was showing signs of wear, and the underside of the slide was taking a pretty good beating, and not showing any sign of letting up. Thats about the time I started to switch over to 9mm, and let the 357SIG go. Havent regretted the choice.
I think it'll remain a niche caliber...especially since its more difficult to reload ( or more fussy to reload ) is probably more accurate.
Not everything in owning weapons is about stopping power...some of it is whether its fun to shoot or not...and if you are already shooting and own weapons in 9mm and .40 S&W and .45 acp in semi-autos...( the .357 Sig is just in between )...and is it more fun to shoot than a 9mm or .40 S&W, no, not really...its unique.
Like the .40 S&W -- I understand the rationale behind developing the .357 Sig ... it just isn't exciting to me.
If I wanted a gun chambered in .357 Sig ...I would go with the Sig 226 / pretty nice guns - and I have them in 9mm and .40 S&W.
Not everything in owning weapons is about stopping power...some of it is whether its fun to shoot or not...and if you are already shooting and own weapons in 9mm and .40 S&W and .45 acp in semi-autos...( the .357 Sig is just in between )...and is it more fun to shoot than a 9mm or .40 S&W, no, not really...its unique.
Like the .40 S&W -- I understand the rationale behind developing the .357 Sig ... it just isn't exciting to me.
If I wanted a gun chambered in .357 Sig ...I would go with the Sig 226 / pretty nice guns - and I have them in 9mm and .40 S&W.
Deaf Smith
New member
Dunno about a 'tad'... Several companies make 125gr JHPs at 1500 fps from a Glock 31 barrel. No +p+ 9mm is gonna get 1350 fps for a 125 from a Glock 17 barrel.
Even run-of-the mill .357 Sig ammo gets a 125 gr JHP at 1400 or more fps from a Glock 31. No run of the mill 9mm 125 gets 1300 fps from a Glock 17.
And that 150 fps extra (or more!) actually makes a lot more energy (energy is mass times velocity squared.) That means faster expansion, larger crush cavity, and more bone fragment thrown out.
A .357 Sig is, if you use top ammo, a true .357 Magnum of 1930s vintage.
Deaf
Evil Monkey
New member
The science doesn't prove this. They are really the same, terminally speaking. You're not going to have a lethal difference when both cartridges are far pass the threshold of energy and sectional density needed to fully perforate a human body.
It's like saying a battleship falling on you is more lethal than a brick house falling on you. Is there actually a difference? Does it really matter?
At the time I had them, 1350 was the factory loading for 125 grain 357SIG. Double Tap was getting a little more, but not much. Winchester 127 grain Ranger T's were listed at 1250, and I believe they still are.
At the time, I emailed Speer asking if there was that much of a difference, or a velocity barrier, like you see with the 5.56, and they said no. This was their exact response....
"The 9mm is a 35,000 psi, +P is 38,500 psi and +P+ is 40,000 psi. The 357 SIG is a 40,000 psi. Bullets of the same weight will approximate the same velocities in SIG and +P+."
From what Ive seen shooting differnt things with both (noting technical, water jugs, wet paper, etc) , they do act pretty much the same. Im not going to get into worrying over paper numbers, as since theres really not a whole lot of difference, I really dont see the point.
If you like the round, great, its a good round, and I like it. I just dont see it being the Sword of Todd its often touted. With the 9mm, I get to shoot a lot more for the money, especially since the price of 357SIG went up like it did. With +P+, I get "near" 357SIG performance out of my 9mm guns, so it works for me.
At the time, I emailed Speer asking if there was that much of a difference, or a velocity barrier, like you see with the 5.56, and they said no. This was their exact response....
"The 9mm is a 35,000 psi, +P is 38,500 psi and +P+ is 40,000 psi. The 357 SIG is a 40,000 psi. Bullets of the same weight will approximate the same velocities in SIG and +P+."
From what Ive seen shooting differnt things with both (noting technical, water jugs, wet paper, etc) , they do act pretty much the same. Im not going to get into worrying over paper numbers, as since theres really not a whole lot of difference, I really dont see the point.
If you like the round, great, its a good round, and I like it. I just dont see it being the Sword of Todd its often touted. With the 9mm, I get to shoot a lot more for the money, especially since the price of 357SIG went up like it did. With +P+, I get "near" 357SIG performance out of my 9mm guns, so it works for me.
Deaf Smith
New member
745SW,
Would you say the 5.56x45, or 7.62x39, or 7.62x51 would do the same indoors? See the military uses them in CQC, indoors, quite often, as does the police. I don't hear of to many of them going deaf. US Air Marshals use the .357 Sig.
And no folks, autopsies, as shown by Martin Fackler and Ayoob, do show the .357 magnum 125 gr. load, causing massive damage via crush cavity, secondary fragmentation, and temporary cavity. It is a very good load.
And no doubt the .357 Sig, with a 20 pct increase in energy, would do even better.
Here is an article on the subject:
http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue.htm
And read:
Civilian Gunshot Wounds and Ballistics: Dispelling the Myths
by Martin L. Fackler MD, FACS
Deaf
Would you say the 5.56x45, or 7.62x39, or 7.62x51 would do the same indoors? See the military uses them in CQC, indoors, quite often, as does the police. I don't hear of to many of them going deaf. US Air Marshals use the .357 Sig.
And no folks, autopsies, as shown by Martin Fackler and Ayoob, do show the .357 magnum 125 gr. load, causing massive damage via crush cavity, secondary fragmentation, and temporary cavity. It is a very good load.
And no doubt the .357 Sig, with a 20 pct increase in energy, would do even better.
Here is an article on the subject:
http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue.htm
And read:
Civilian Gunshot Wounds and Ballistics: Dispelling the Myths
by Martin L. Fackler MD, FACS
Deaf
Evil Monkey
New member
This article is full of crap and was torn apart on m4carbine.net and other handgun forums years ago.
If I've ever seen an ill minded man running his fingers through a keyboard, it's right there in that article.
I'd rather have my two dogs take turns crapping and stomping on this keyboard I'm typing on and come up with better stuff to read than that website you linked.
