.357 SIG

Dc9Loser --

First, I don't claim to be an expert nor did I sleep at Hotel X last night. It's just that I've learned there are advantages and disadvantages to just about every caliber and that the load and bullet make a difference. I just recoil when I see things like "Caliber X is a joke."

What is the ideal caliber? Lots of opinions and different points of view. You are right that the .357 magnum 125 gr. JHP (and the .357 Sig equivalent) are excellent defensive rounds. When clothing permits, I like carrying a 1911 style .45 acp using 230 gr. Gold Dots. My bedside gun is a .357 magnum with 158 gr. Gold Dots. With light summer clothing, it's mostly a .380 FMJ (for penetration) or .38 special. It's all a compromise.

Your stories about people getting hit by a .22 and a .380 underscore the importance of shot placement.

The best place to get started in understanding terminal ballistics is by reviewing the work of Dr. Martin Fackler, some of which is available at http://www.firearmstactical.com/. Dr. Fackler was instrumental in helping establish the FBI standards for bullet performance. He and others are highly critical of the Sanow/Marshall data. A couple of samples:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs24.htm#Too Good To Be True
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs31.htm
 
Dc9Loser said:
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Question - what is the best CCW round based on the above factors - that is if cost is not a factor and realistic concealment in a hot climate is?
There is no one best. Choose a cartridge that positively feeds, is accurate, and has good terminal ballistics from your gun [in that order]

Some good CCW loads to consider are:

Speer 125gr Gold Dot
W-W 125gr Ranger T
R-P 125gr Golden Saber Bonded
Federal 125gr HST
Hornady 124gr XTP
Corbon 115gr & 125gr JHP [the 115gr has shallow penetration, but is lighter to carry]

Practice with CCI/Speer Blazer, USA or UMC FMJ or JHP ammunition▬just be 100% positive the premium JHP ammunition you choose positively functions in the magazines you plan on carrying, and consider yourself well-armed
 
I've got a .357 Sig and like it fine, the bottleneck round is supposedly the most inheriently feed reliable.
Another way to think of the .357 Sig is a 9mm magnum

Glock 32 with 125 gr. Gold Dot @ 1,334 fps / 494# KE
Glock 23 with 155 gr. Gold Dot @ 1,171 fps / 472# KE

I fail to see where the extra 24# KE of the .357 Sig, or 1mm of extra bullet diameter of the 40, will really matter given equivalent shot placement.

I also tend to believe this would work just as well ;)
45 acp Winchester Ranger T 230 JHP @ 865 fps / 382# KE

Like others have said, there is nothing wrong with the .357 Sig (9mm magnum) it does produce less recoil (as measured by power factor) than the 40 or 45 and as you can see has plenty of KE, but I can't really believe it's superior to the competition.
 
What you must understand is how kinetic energy causes damage to the human body. Basically kinetic energy transfer is almost directly proportional to the size of temporary stretch cavitation. Temporary cavity injures by stretching tissue beyond its elastic limit. Many discount kinetic energy alltogether because they believe that handguns do not have sufficient energy to produce a large enough temporary cavity to cause permanent damage. This isn't entirely true because the tissues of the body are not homogenous. Certain tissues like the liver, spleen, small blood vessels, and certain nervous tissue are quite delicate and can be easily damaged by temporary cavity produced by handguns while other tissue like muscle, bone, and lung tissue are not so easily damaged and cannot be reliably injured by temporary cavity.

With regards to the magnum-type calibers line 10mm, .41 Magnum, and .44 Magnum being overly penetrative, remember Newton's third law: every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The more energy with which a bullet strikes its target, the more energy it must expend in order to continue to penetrate that target. While a .44 Magnum may exit a target and thusly not expend all of its energy, it may have still expended just as much as a .357 Magnum because the .44 had a lot more to begin with. A good example of this is the gelatin test of Speer's 240grn Gold Dot over at Brassfetcher.com. While the bullet did go completely through the 16" gelatin block (just like the 125grn Gold Dot .357 Magnum did), the temporary cavitation was so great that it actually broke the wooden board that the gelatin block was sitting on. The biggest drawback to large calibers like 10mm, .44 Magnum, and .41 Magnum is, IMHO, their increased recoil and the size of the gun necessary to shoot them.

Coming back to the .357 Sig, you must understand that it does not match what the .357 Magnum is capable of. The Sig is really sort of a one-trick-pony in that it can match, in certain loadings, the performance of the older 125grn SJHP .357 Magnum loadings. However, the Sig cannot match the velocities attainable with hotter .357 Magnum loadings from firms like Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, or Grizzly, it cannot match the performance of .357 Magnum loadings with heavier 140-180grn bullets, only a handfull of Sig loadings match the velocities of older 125grn .357 Magnum loadings, and the bullets used in the Sig don't always perform the same way as those used in the Magnum. In order to understand the reasons for this, you must understand the history of the .357 Sig cartridge.

The Sig was originally designed to duplicate the performance of the 125grn .357 Magnum loadings in a semi-automatic platform. The original loadings of the cartridge were able to match the ballistics (125grn @ 1450fps) but they unfortunately suffered from projectile dysfunction. You see, the .357 Sig uses a .355" diameter bullet like a 9mm or .380 rather than a .357-.359" bullet like the .357 Magnum and .38 Special do. The original .357 Sig loadings were using bullets that had been designed for 9mm velocities and, unsuprisingly, they displayed over-expansion, fragmentation, and underpenetration when driven at such high velocities. The solution to this was two-fold. First, the velocities of most .357 Sig loadings was reduced from 1450fps to roughly 1350fps where most manufacturers keep it today. Secondly, newer, cartridge-specific bullets were designed that would better hold together at increased velocities.

The Sig, in its hottest loadings, still is only able to duplicate the velocities of run-of-the-mill Magnums. Custom ammo companies like Double Tap and Buffalo Bore are able to drive 125grn bullets in excess of 1600fps in the Magnum, velocities well beyond what the Sig is capable of. Likewise, the vast majority of Sig loadings use 125grn or lighter bullets. While there are a couple of 147grn .357 Sig loadings (Hornady and Double Tap IIRC), they are unable to match the velocities of similar or even slightly heavier bullets in Magnum loadings from the same manufacturer. Also, the Sig's heaviest bullets are 147grn, a weight that is merely midrange for the Magnum (JHP .357 Magnum loadings are available all the way up to 180grn and hardcast 200grn loadings are available).

Finally, remember that the best .357 Sig loadings are matching the performance of .357 Magnum loadings that are 30+ years old. Newer Magnum loadings like Speer's 125grn Gold Dot are able to display excellent expansion along with much deeper penetration (this loading penetrated 16"+ in Brassfetcher's tests). The advantage to enhanced penetration is that the temporary cavity remains larger in diameter deeper into the target thusly giving it greater potential to injure vital organs that lie deeper in the body.

Basically, what the .357 Sig gives you is penetration and expansion very similar to a 124-127grn 9mm +P or +P+ with a slightly larger temporary cavity. Due to its higher velocity, the .357 Sig also has slightly better barrier-penetration capability than either the 9mm or .40 S&W and significantly better than the .45 ACP (.45 has never been known to fare particularly well against intermediate barriers other than auto glass). I'd consider it to be in the same category as other common service-type calibers such as .38 Special +P, 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP.
 
I have a Sig 229 in .357 Sig and just picked up a Glock 33 last week. After shooting it I am pretty impressed. I think you will be too.

I was expecting a lot more felt recoil because it is so much lighter than the 229. I was wrong- it is a much softer shot than I thought it would be, with very little muzzle flip at all.

I do use the mag extension though, so do not know how it would feel without.

Curious about your impressions. Please post them when you get a chance.
 
I know the 357SIG annoys the old 357MAG people, as you can usually tell by the responses about it being a "one trick pony" and all.

Fact is, it really is basically a one trick pony, and one the 357MAG's cant match, since you cant get a gun chambered in 357MAG with a 9mm sized frame, that carry 9-15+ rounds in the mag, are as easy to shoot well with, and are easy to carry and hide.

I know the 357MAGs must be feeling threatened, and have been trying to catch up lately, with the higher cap and lighter weight guns, but they still wont ever beat even a small auto in 357SIG, for any of the above. And just to add icing to the cake, the 357SIG still does offer that "one trick pony" 357MAG loading and performance. To me, thats a "win-win", and becasue of it, my 357MAG's only come out for occasional practice and play these days, and my hands thank me for not shooting the medium-hot stuff out of the 60's anymore. They still aint happy about the 642's though. :)
 
Fact is, it really is basically a one trick pony, and one the 357MAG's cant match, since you cant get a gun chambered in 357MAG with a 9mm sized frame, that carry 9-15+ rounds in the mag, are as easy to shoot well with, and are easy to carry and hide.

I know the 357MAGs must be feeling threatened, and have been trying to catch up lately, with the higher cap and lighter weight guns, but they still wont ever beat even a small auto in 357SIG, for any of the above.

Not threatened, just realistic. The .357 Sig does indeed perform its one trick very well, its just not the trick that I'm looking for. I prefer a revolver to an auto regardless of the caliber and I prefer the heavier 158grn bullets in my .357 Magnum. I'm not a one-gun-for-everything type of guy so I have different tools for different jobs. If I want something high-capacity, I've got a 9mm. If I want magnum power in a semi-auto, I've got a 10mm. If I want slim and easy to hide, I've got single-stack autos in .32 ACP, 7.62x25, 10mm, and .45 ACP. If I want raw power, I've got 10mm, .357 Magnum, and .44 Magnum. It's not that the .357 Sig is useless, it just doesn't do anything that I don't already have covered by something else. .357 Sig isn't the only cartridge I view that way either, .40 S&W, .45 GAP, and .327 Federal are all in the same boat.

The main reason I bring up the one-trick-pony thing is that people often think that the .357 Sig is something that it's not. More than once I've talked to people who were considering using a .357 Sig for hunting. While personal defense may be debatable, few knowledgable about such things would argue that .357 Sig is poorly suited to hunting anything but small game due to the bullets and loadings available for it. It doesn't bother me a bit if someone wants to CC a .357 Sig, I just want them to understand the cartridge for what it is.
 
The main reason I bring up the one-trick-pony thing is that people often think that the .357 Sig is something that it's not.
I think that can be said for all of them, and is exactly what most people think about their choice of caliber, regardless. Whatever anyone chooses to carry, it seems to be the death ray of choice, and needs to be defended. :)
 
Quote:
The main reason I bring up the one-trick-pony thing is that people often think that the .357 Sig is something that it's not.
I think that can be said for all of them, and is exactly what most people think about their choice of caliber, regardless. Whatever anyone chooses to carry, it seems to be the death ray of choice, and needs to be defended.

I agree, and it's not just limited to cartridges either.
 
I put 100 rounds through my .357 Glock 33 today.

I shot it shot for shot back to back for a bit against a Taurus PT140 (.40 S&W).

I also shot some hydroshock .38 special out of a titanium S&W, 50 rounds of reloads out of a Kahr CW-9, and a few rounds out of a Glock 17.

The recoil of the SIG .357 was indeed snappy but not that bad, very controllable, and very accurate. I had no trouble knocking down 2 inch groups rapid fire at 7 yards (yeah that is 2 inches with an occasional shooter induced flyer - LOL).

I was however surprised by my old cheap Taurus, it shot those .40 cal rounds a close second to the .357 Glock. Nice groups and slow push recoil which seemed less than the Glock because it was less snappy. The Taurus is about 3 oz less in wt than the Glock too.

I was disappointed with my Kahr 9mm compared to the guns above. Bigger groups with the long pull trigger. I think my laser which automatically comes on and is not zeroed for 7 yards might have been a distraction. I have it zeroed for 25 yards and I am not sure that is the way to go.

The .38 Special with its tiny barrel was a mess. Loud as the SIG rounds and not accurate in my hands. A point black ammo dump device in my opinion - your results may vary.

I absolutely love my new Glock. I have the pierce plus 2 extension on the mags and it fits my hand just fine. The gun shoots point of aim point of impact - and rapid fire was no problem. Sweet.

I left it with the Gunsmith at the range to put a 3.5 lb rocket trigger in it. Not sure if that is the best way to go for CCW but I can change it back later if it is too sensitive.

With the high pressures of the SIG rounds I think a slightly extended barrel with porting might be a nice addition which would not add much length.

Anyway, love the gun and round so far.
 
Minor comment on the sig.

Its loud!

Think about that in a house situation.

Even I as a 357 Sig fan, admit that it can be quite loud to shoot.
 
Minor comment on the sig.

Its loud!

Think about that in a house situation.

Even I as a 357 Sig fan, admit that it can be quite loud to shoot.

One thing that did strike me the last time I was around someone shooting a .357 Sig at the range was the incredibly loud, sharp report. It was substantially louder than even the .357 Magnum snubnose I'd been firing earlier (Ruger SP101 with 2 1/4" barrel). The most analagous report that I can think of was the single-shot .338 Win Mag handgun that another fellow let me try one time. Of course, the .357 Sig in question was ported, which seems to make nearly anything louder.
 
The SIG is loud. Probably because of the high pressures of the round. With hearing protection on the range that is just not an issue.

Loudness is a problem practicing without ear protection, otherwise I really don't see a problem. The once in a lifetime you might have a shootout on the street or in a house it just is not a problem.

I have a class III and own one silenced gun - a suppressed .22 ruger. Sounds like a quiet pellet gun and no recoil. Nice gun.

I thought about getting a 9 mm suppressor for my Glock 17 and using it for home defense. You know trick it all out with extended mag/laser/strobelight etc. Alas, there are rules governing class III weapons which would make it a pain. I would have to put it in the safe each morning and take it out each night. Not a big deal but I'd hate to leave it out have it get stolen and then suffer the consequences.

I'm still thinking about getting a suppressed shotgun. They make a Saiga 12 that is suppressed. 20 rounds of 12 gauge rounds and relatively low recoil and low noise. Again, you have to worry about leaving it around as a Class III gun.

Anyway, the .357 SIG in the Glock 33 is a great little package. Can't wait for my ported wolf barrel to show up.

Also lets be serious a loud shot will summon police and scare a perp. Not exactly a bad thing.
 
I went to the range yesterday and carried my Glock 27. I started out shooting 9mm rounds thru it with a Lone Wolf barrel, then dropped the Glock 40s&w barrel in and unloaded a box of 40's, then went to my Storm Lake 357sig barrel. You could definitely tell a difference when the 357sigs were fired. It is the round that I carry simply because I believe penetration with a JHP is a good thing.
 
I have a 226 in 40/357sig; and a 229 in 40/357sig. I have 1911's and Sig 220's in 45 ACP. I have 226's in 9mm. All of these rounds are contollable by most people and capable of accurate follow-up, rapid fire. All are reasonable choices for defense.

I carry the 229 in 357 sig most of the time. I have both 40 and 357 sig barrels for both the 229 and the 226. The 357 sig shoots more accurately for me in both guns. The 40 is a fine round, but capacity being equal I go with the 357 sig.

Of the 4 common pistol rounds: 9mm Luger, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, and 357sig; I don't think there is any compelling data of superiority regarding overall defense with the latter three. All 4 are reasonable choices.
 
I don't think anybody will ever be able to quantify (to anyone's satisfaction) a "best" handgun round.

I have a great deal of confidence in the .357Sig round. I shoots very well for me from my 2 chosen platforms (P229 and P239) and I have faith it will perform as advertised in a defensive situation. I am very, very comfortable carrying it.
Gonzo
 
You all are probably right - not a big deal of difference between .357 SIG/.40 S&W/.45 ACP. All pretty strong rounds for a concealable semi-automatic handgun.

Regardless - I like the idea of more energy and a flatter trajectory of the .357 SIG.

I have 200 rounds of Fiocci 124 grain XTP HP which claim 1500 fps/ 619 ft/lbs of energy coming from Ammo to go ($27.95/50 rds) and a lone wolf ported barrel. Might get to shoot em up this weekend if they get delivered in time!

I will report.
 
You read up a "storm" and in all that time you didnt hear of basic physics?


Of course a man isnt going to be "knocked down" from a .380. He wouldnt have been "knocked down" from a .50 BMG, either. Equal and opposite reaction.

Nice opinions, but I stopped reading there.
 
Of course a man isnt going to be "knocked down" from a .380. He wouldnt have been "knocked down" from a .50 BMG, either. Equal and opposite reaction.

You know, I have not been on here long. Just trying to gain some knowledge because I really don't know ballistic terminal effects for pistol rounds.

So I made some statements about what I thought was what in order to hear people critique my views so I could learn.

I have come to the conclusion that there are some people that really know their stuff on here and then there are some buffoons.

Mr. Constitutionalist I did not mean that a .380 did not knock him down through sheer force but through the effects of a hit, um like hydrostatic shock, massive wound trama, or a bleeding pinky or whatever.

Funny that you mention the .50 BMG because I did shoot a man with a burst from a M2 .50 BMG and you are right - it did not knock him down. It did bore a hole through his chest which I could see daylight through. Then he fell forward.

Look geek, I have been shooting since I was 8. I do not know everything. I am only an experienced layman in some aspects of this stuff. I am merely trying to gain information from those who may know more than I.

Maybe ya need to read what people write before commenting. Though I suppose you have little to contribute.

I will test out the new barrel and the hot rounds and report back. Maybe someone can learn from what I learn from.

Thanks to those who wish to contribute knowledge.
 
DC9 - please read THIS link

Hydrostatic shock is generally reserved for high-velocity rifle rounds above 2,000 FPS. Temporary and permanent cavities are also part of the equation.
Only rifles have the ability to effectively displace tissue in the temporary stretch cavity to cause damage. Handguns soley rely on permanent stretch cavity - the bigger the hole the better off you are

The .357 Sig doesn't quite have high enough velocity to displace tissue in the temporary cavity.

Do not rely on some unproven force like "ballistic pressure wave" or hydrostatic shock to incapacitate the bad guy. As i said before, putting holes where they weren't intended to be does.


To quote Dr. Vincent DiMaio, "stopping power= where you hit the bad guy, how many times you can hit them"

Please view the link i posted above

Dc9Loser:
All the calibers you listed are HANDGUNS, so they are ALL "kinda of a joke."

I don't know how many of you are familiar with Dr Dimaio but he's just a pathologist. The only people he has seen shoot are those laying dead in front of him. I have not meet one pathologist who does not claim to be an expert in something. You would think they are trying out for a spot on CSI.

Anyway I put much more credit on Sanow/Marshal. At least they attempt to get the facts correct and have actually done police work. But people continue to read what some doctor writes like it is actually true and don't think that it might not be. Most of what a doctor writes could be duplicated by a college student preparing a final exam!!!

All handguns are kind of a joke. ***. Well yes if you compare them to a rifle. A handgun is usually the best thing a person, including law enforcement has to resolve a situation immediately! :(

I like the 357 Sig. I have a barrel for this caliber for my G-22. Works great and the results have been very favorable.
 
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