.357 Sig Question

In the real world 357 Sig doesn't do anything 9mm+P won't do. The better 9mm loads will match 4" 357 mag loads and beat 357 mag loads from barrels shorter than 4". The 357 Sig will match 357 mag from 6" barrels. Just not that much better.

When you factor in less mag capacity, greater expense, and more recoil it is no surprise that 357 Sig is never going to be a popular round.
 
Recoil is the problem. Until handguns have counter recoil type actions, putting a hotter round in the platform causes too many problems for follow up shots. Muzzle flash and the blast from the muzzle shooting very hot rounds doesnt help at all with your situational awareness in a gun fight.

It's like shooting a snub nose 357 magnum revolver. I bet you can make more hits on the target quickly by shooting 38 specials through it then you can by shooting the much more "powerful" 357 magnum through it.
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Apparently you never fired a 357 Sig. The 357Sig has no more recoil than a 9mm in the same gun. Fast hits with a 357 magnum are a achieved with skill.
 
jmr40 said:
In the real world 357 Sig doesn't do anything 9mm+P won't do. The better 9mm loads will match 4" 357 mag loads and beat 357 mag loads from barrels shorter than 4". The 357 Sig will match 357 mag from 6" barrels. Just not that much better.

When you factor in less mag capacity, greater expense, and more recoil it is no surprise that 357 Sig is never going to be a popular round.
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Please share the data you're using for your comparison.

I suspect it might be a little biased, especially if one compares the high performance 9mm +P+, 357 Sig and 357 Magnum ammo from the same manufacturer, such a Buffalo Bore and Underwood.

Underwood 9mm 124 grain +P+ = 1300 fps.
Underwood 357 Sig 125 = 1475 fps.
Underwood 357 Magnum 125 = 1700 fps.
 
Nanuk said:
Apparently you never fired a 357 Sig. The 357Sig has no more recoil than a 9mm in the same gun. Fast hits with a 357 magnum are a achieved with skill.
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Of course the 357 Sig has more recoil than a 9mm in the same gun. The 357 Sig pushes the same bullet weight ~200 fps faster than the 9mm. That means more recoil.

Data from Hornady, using same powders, same gun weight of 2.5 lbs., max loads:

9mm

124 grain bullet with 6.6 gr of Blue Dot at 1100 fps = 2.75 ft lb recoil.
124 grain bullet with 7.9 gr of A#7 at 1150 fps = 3.10 ft lb recoil.

357 Sig

124 grain bullet with 10.5 gr of Blue Dot at 1350 fps = 4.52 ft lb recoil.
124 grain bullet with 11.6 gr of A#7 at 1300 fps = 4.29 ft lb recoil.

That runs about a 38% to 54% increase in recoil force produced by the 357 Sig.
 
74A95 said:
Of course the 357 Sig has more recoil than a 9mm in the same gun. The 357 Sig pushes the same bullet weight ~200 fps faster than the 9mm. That means more recoil.
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Ive shot my share of both, and never really noticed a difference. As I said earlier if I hand you a 31 or a 17, and you didnt know which it was, I seriously doubt you could tell by the recoil when fired.

The problem with paper ballistics is, yes, one has bigger numbers than the other, but no one seems to be able to translate the differences, into anything of substance. Other than the numbers are "slightly" bigger, on paper. Ive not seen anything that shows that the slight difference does anything more. 357SIG when tested in gel, performs to the same standards as everything else.

As much as some seem to want it to be, there are no magic bullets. And thats especially true with handgun bullets. The only proper response with ANY of them when used in a "stopping" capacity, is to continue to shoot until the threat is down. Hit a switch, and the target goes down with any of them. Miss that switch, try again, and continue until to do so until you do.

If you feel better using the 357SIG for carry, and want to practice with 9mm, thats makes the practice part easy, and a lot cheaper. Go all out 9mm, and you save more money yet.

I seriously doubt anything you shoot with either, is going to know the difference.
 
AK103K said:
Ive shot my share of both, and never really noticed a difference. As I said earlier if I hand you a 31 or a 17, and you didnt know which it was, I seriously doubt you could tell by the recoil when fired.
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I'll take that bet!
 
You must be super sensitive (and emotional to boot). :D

Im serious though, "I" cant tell the difference, and Ive shot a lot out of both.

The only real difference I saw between the two was, the 9mm +P+ doesnt beat up on the 17 like the 357SIG does the 31.
 
74A95 said:
I'll take that bet!
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I’ll take it, too. Having shot a fair amount of .357 Sig and 9 mm out of my old p226, you can definitely tell the difference when you pull the trigger. I won’t argue that one is a better round over the other, but the .357 Sig has more recoil, a huge flash, and a much louder bang.

I had several people ask me at the range what I was shooting when I shot it. That tells you it ain’t a 9 mm.
 
I think that there are some mistakes in thinking involved in this thread by some.

Some of the powerful loads of the 9mm +P+ in a 124 or 125 gr. bullet by Underwood are 1300 fps or Buffalo Bore at 1350 fps. These loads are also on the borders, and occasionally over that border of being over-pressure for the 9mm

But the same weight in the 357 Sig surpasses that easily by 100 or so fps and do it at normal operating pressures for the 357 Sig.

Look here for examples of that:

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/357-sig-gel-test/

While you are looking note the penetration and expansion results.

The point here is that one round is very clearly more powerful than the other. Now, many readily acknowledge this when they complain about the muzzle blast and increased recoil but fail/or refuse to note what flows from that...that a more powerful round is more likely to do more damage.

What more energy means is that a bullet has a greater likelihood of doing it's job. Of penetrating, expanding, breaking bone and punching through barriers. Which all tests show the 357 Sig doing above and beyond what the 9mm can.

The trade off is shootability and round count. Here the 9mm has an advantage. It's a soft shooting round. Which should tell folks something.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Ballistic Gelatin Tests/357 SIG 10 Percent Ballistic Gelatin.html

This is not to say that the 9mm is a poor round. It's just to state the obvious that 357 Sig is more powerful and therefore likely to be more effective all other things being equal.

tipoc
 
Many people confuse blast with recoil.

Any difference in perceived recoil between the 357 Sig and the 9mm is insignificant. I have a 9mm and 40 barrel for my Glock 31C. Ask any deer hunter about, blast, flash, recoil. They are range issues, not fight issues.
I was a young cop at the time when most cops carried 357 magnum revolvers. Once you mast the DA revolver the difference between 38 Special and 357 magnum becomes academic.
 
Many people confuse blast with recoil.

Any difference in perceived recoil between the 357 Sig and the 9mm is insignificant. I have a 9mm and 40 barrel for my Glock 31C. Ask any deer hunter about, blast, flash, recoil. They are range issues, not fight issues.
I was a young cop at the time when most cops carried 357 magnum revolvers. Once you mast the DA revolver the difference between 38 Special and 357 magnum becomes academic.
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I think sums things up nicely.


For those who think 357SIG recoils more, think about this, and right from Speers engineers.....with the pressures being the same, "Bullets of the same weight will approximate the same velocities in SIG and +P+."

Youre dealing with basically the same thing, some very similar velocities with the same/similar weight bullet, so where is the all this added recoil of the 357SIG coming from?

I really dont see any difference between standard 9mm, +P, and +P+ when I shoot them.

Using a factory .40 barrel on my P226 and P229 SIGs that were 357SIG guns, Ive shot a fair amount of .40 from them (same exact guns), and shooting 135 grain, and even 165 grain bullets, I really dont remember seeing any real difference in recoil between the rounds. Never had a 9mm barrel for the SIG's, so I cant compare there, but I seriously doubt there would be any difference.
 
The science is quite plain to understand, to the average carrier (me) of a self-defence pistol. Who has never shot anyone? It does not seem to warrant the not to insignificant extra flash/bang and cost of the .357 Sig calibre.

Reading the vast volumes of information on the performance of pistol calibres when shot into human bodies, it does seem to be more important to me, what your bullet strikes (Accuracy) compared with what you hit it with (power) so my choice of Gen4 Glock 19, with my long, carried 147g Winchester Ranger T will be as good as most other offerings in 9mm, for defensive use.
 
38 Special +P has more recoil than 38 Special when shot out of the same revolver, and 357 Magnum has significantly more recoil than 38 Special +P.

Nine millimeter +P+ has more recoil than 9 mm +P and 9 mm +P has more recoil than 9 mm when shot from the same pistol.

.40 S&W has more recoil than 9 mm Luger when shot from the same pistol.

Whether 9 mm +P+ has more or less recoil than 357 SIG will depend on the load. There is no defined SAAMI case pressure limit for 9 mm +P+. I suspect it is possible to load up 9 mm +P+ to pressures just below case rupture limits and get the same velocity as 357 SIG but I don't think that is how most 9 mm +P+ ammo is loaded.

As an example, lets look at some Underwood ammo loads. Their 9 mm 124 grain +P+ bonded JHP has an advertised muzzle velocity of 1300 fps while their 357 SIG 124 grain XTP JHP has a muzzle velocity of 1475 fps. That is 175 fps more for the same projectile mass and diameter.

Whether .40 S&W or 357 SIG has more perceived recoil when shot from the same pistol is going to depend on the shooter.

The above are facts based on Newtonian physics. But perceived recoil will depend greatly on the size, mass, and other characteristics of the handgun, and different shooters may have very different perceptions of recoil shooting the same cartridge in the same gun.
 
Robert Rinker explains in his book on ballistics that muzzle blast is a part of felt recoil in a number of calibers particularly those with higher pressure and more powerful rounds.

Shooters have long noted that the muzzle blast, and the felt recoil, from a 357 Magnum with a 3" barrel and a 125 gr. bullet at over 1350 fps is more substantial than the muzzle blast and felt recoil from the same gun with a 158 gr. bullet at 1000 or 1100 fps. This is why many choose mid range power in a .357 mag snubby or K frame for personal defense.

Muzzle blast is hot gases and particles leaving the barrel at high velocity, often with a burst of flame and light. This escaping gas expands evenly and rapidly in all directions, including back at the gun and shooter. This is a factor in felt recoil.

It's true that identical bullet weights from the same gun at the same velocity will act the same. But here's the rub. There are few 9mm+P+ that operate at the same weight and velocity as the 357 Sig round. When the 9mm+P+ does do that it tends to be close to being over pressure. Italso recoils more and wears on the gun more. What is a walking pace for the 357 Sig is a sprint for the 9mm.

Facts is facts fellas. These facts don't mean that the 9mm is not a better choice for many shooters than the 357 Sig or 40 S&W. But the latter are more powerful rounds and, if a person shoots them well, a better choice for self defense for some individuals.

tipoc
 
357 Sig has about 20% or more (as a generalization) KE than 9mm +P
I don't know if damage from hydrastatic shock, temporary cavity, (whatever term) damages tissue at 500# KE or not.
I shot a deer with 10mm that expands about .65 - made 1 1/4'' hole in shoulder/leg, bigger than .95 exit hole on heart, 600# KE damage > bullet diameter done.
I have pics to back that up. ;)

357 Sig from my pistol doesn't generate 600# KE - but is more than 9mm
Glock 31:
Speer Gold Dot 125 @ 1,363 fps / 516# KE
Federal HST 125 @ 1,385 fps / 533# KE
Ranger T 125 @ 1,389 fps / 536# KE

For those that think KE doesn't matter, how bout this:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
38 Special Winchester Train & Defend 130 gr. 14.1''/.59 (218# KE)
357 Mag Remington SJHP 125 gr. 13.6''/.54 (602# KE)

Based on penetration and expansion in gel that 38 special load would have the same incapacitation potential as the "legendary" 357 Mag load. :rolleyes: LOL
 
It's true that identical bullet weights from the same gun at the same velocity will act the same. But here's the rub. There are few 9mm+P+ that operate at the same weight and velocity as the 357 Sig round. When the 9mm+P+ does do that it tends to be close to being over pressure. Italso recoils more and wears on the gun more. What is a walking pace for the 357 Sig is a sprint for the 9mm.
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That was the strange part for me. My 31 was showing more wear than my 17, with more +P+ 9mm (127 grain Winchester Ranger T) through it than the 31 had 357SIG.

The difference was heavy peening on the underside of the slide where the locking block impacted it on the 31 vs some light finish wear on the 17 in the same spot.

I ended up putting a 9mm conversion barrel in the 31 and gave up on the 357SIG. By the time I got rid of it, it had more 9mm through it than 357SIG. The peening stopped too.

I still have and shoot the 17, and at this point, its got just over 135,000 rounds through it, with about 500 plus rounds of +P+ through it a year for the past 9 years or so. It still only shows finish wear on the underside of the slide, and no sign of peening like the 31.
 
If the movie Dirty Harry came out today and Harry was packing a 357 Sig , they would be selling like hot cakes .

In 1971 you could sell every model 29 S&W 44 magnum you could get your hands on at twice the MSRP !

All the 357 sig needs is Clint Eastwood to make a kick-ass movie !
 
gwpercle said:
If the movie Dirty Harry came out today and Harry was packing a 357 Sig , they would be selling like hot cakes .

In 1971 you could sell every model 29 S&W 44 magnum you could get your hands on at twice the MSRP !

All the 357 sig needs is Clint Eastwood to make a kick-ass movie !
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Too bad “In the Line Of Fire” came out in 1993. He carried a SIG p228 in that, but it was too early to be in .357 Sig.
 
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That was the strange part for me. My 31 was showing more wear than my 17, with more +P+ 9mm (127 grain Winchester Ranger T) through it than the 31 had 357SIG.

The difference was heavy peening on the underside of the slide where the locking block impacted it on the 31 vs some light finish wear on the 17 in the same spot.

I ended up putting a 9mm conversion barrel in the 31 and gave up on the 357SIG. By the time I got rid of it, it had more 9mm through it than 357SIG. The peening stopped too.

I still have and shoot the 17, and at this point, its got just over 135,000 rounds through it, with about 500 plus rounds of +P+ through it a year for the past 9 years or so. It still only shows finish wear on the underside of the slide, and no sign of peening like the 31.
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This is a good point and I used to wonder about this as well comparing the wear of Glocks in 9mm and 40 S&W. In general more powerful rounds tend to produce more wear particularly barrels. That's true in general.

But I noticed that for years Glock was using the same recoil spring in their guns in 9mm as they did in the 40 S&W (the exception being the baby Glocks). The result that came from law enforcement about premature wear of the Golks in 40 S&W. I've heard that this practice ended, the springs, but when you consider that other manufacturers did not do that (particularly Sig). I wondered about this as I finally got a Sig P229 in 40 S&W with a 357 Sig barrel. This made both relatively easy shooting rounds. When properly sprung and maintained some guns in both 40 and 357 Sig can be very controllable at speed.

tipoc
 
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