.357 Rem Maximum vs .44 Mag for grizzly/polar bear defense?

I love the .357Max, but it's the wrong gun for your stated purpose. I can push 200gr GCLWNs at 1500fps, but that's from a 10.5" barrel, which I think would be a bit unwieldy in bear country.

Heck, I can get 240gr Keiths goin' 1200fps from my 5.5" .41Mag without breaking a sweat. Pleasant to shoot & very handy.

Of your 2 stated choices, I'd go with the .44Mag.
 
briandg said:
I saw a maverick with a V8 once. Back then I thought that it was one of the coolest things that I had ever seen, but I also thought that about the Opel GT. Times and minds change.

After the mustang II was released with a 302 V8, we essentially had a pinto with a V8. things don't change much.
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My mother had a Mustang II Ghia with a Boss 302 under the hood, and no it was not a "Pinto" and the Opel GT still is a cool car, back on topic, I would go with 44 mag or even 480 Ruger for that matter, both are far more ubiquitous over the 357 Max there OP.
 
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These threads are funny. It’s great to see people that have never shot a .357 Maximum, .44 magnum, and/or a bear chime in!

1. Have you ever shot a .357 Maximum? With a 10” barrel it’s the most punishing slap-your-hand, wear plugs and muffs, enormous painful fireball handgun I have owned. I found the .454 Casull much more pleasant to shoot.

2. Let’s assume you want portability to back up the high powered rifle so in short barrel portable handguns, the 10mm will not hurt as much when the bear shoves it up your butt. You friends will admire your .44 or big bore bear revolver but no one wants to shoot it more than once. NASA can find you from outer space if you light off a .357 Max after dusk from the fireball, and I can’t even imagine how one could hang on to a light weight Max.

3. If you want a “practical” gun, get a shotgun and a .22 pistol. Slugs, birdshot, plinking.. done. You can do it all.

4. When in bear country nothing beats knowing the animals, knowing terrain and situation, having plenty of trained and ready individuals looking out for each other in your party.

Ain’t no magic gun to shoot the sixgun right out of a bear’s paw. A polar bear is a thousand pounds of alpha predator. I’ve only seen two grizzly bear in my life, range about 2 miles. We turned around and got clear because our local guy said “two miles? They can be here in 6 minutes. Too close.” We went the other direction and still kept vigilant. But we didn’t even have bear spray and hiked the mountains many times.
 
Prof Young said:
Everyone I talked to in Alaska from park rangers to hunting guides to the guy behind the counter at the gun store said your gun is your second line of defense against bears. Spray is the first line.

For Bear Hunting I'd assume you'd want the most powerful gun you can shoot well.

Life is good.
Prof Young
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I talked to a Ranger up there and told me on the side that they are not allowed to encourage anyone to carry a firearm. And if you read any of their hints and tips to stay safe, while frolicking in bear country, none of them include you defending your life with a firearm. This is in line with their "not encouraging anyone to use a firearm or even have one" mentality. Seems negligent to me.

But if people want to train themselves to grab some pepper spray as a 900lb killer is closing in on them, so be it.
 
I have no experience with bears as we don't have any where I live. But, the 44 magnum would be my choice, as it is a caliber that would, IMO, hold its own against a large bear with the proper load, and would consider a, bear minimum, no pun intended, in that situation. However, a 357 would be better than a club, or knife, and is definitely better than not having anything at all. But I do really believe that most people would actually choke during an actual bear charge at close range, and wouldn't be able to effectively use what ever weapon they had to stop that charge. But that is just my opinion.
 
But I do really believe that most people would actually choke during an actual bear charge at close range, and wouldn't be able to effectively use what ever weapon they had to stop that charge. But that is just my opinion.
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I understand that and agree. I have never been charged by a bear. Some years ago, my son and I were fishing our way up from Homer to Anchorage. At one stop along the way, we pulled to the side to make our way through about 100 yards of woods to the river....either the Kenai or the Russian, don't remember which. I do remember the walk along the path through the woods. We were unarmed. Encumbered by waders and rods, I thought to myself that if we happened upon a bear and the bear took issue with us....even with a gun, any kind of gun, we would be lucky to get a shot off. Very lucky. An aimed shot? That would be even luckier.
There was no bear. We fished and went our way.
I carry bear spray now. Have had no occasion to use it.

Pete
 
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Good Morning Jack O'Conner,

How do you know pepper spray is reliable deterrent?

As of this date, there has been no scientific testing to support pepper spray efficacy. It's far more marketing scheme than scientific. But then again, it would be impossible to create scientific protocol to test pepper spray.

If it were me, I'd go with a 1911A1 with 230 grain bullets. I could substitute a 4" .357 Mag loaded with 180 grain hard cast, but I'd rather have a 1911A1,

I used to own a 6" .44 Mag. I'd pay to see anyone accurately rapid fire 6 .44 Mag rounds. With standard factory rounds, .44 Mag recoil always jerked muzzle off target.

I'd rather hit a charging bear with 9 230 grain .45 Auto rounds, followed by 6 180 grain .357 Mag rounds than possibly one assured .44 Mag round.

There is a practical side of mean critter defense that is always neglected when discussing mean critter handguns. Always neglected are the very prominent facts of ease of carry, speed to battery (how fast one can get his handgun pointed at a threat), recoil mitigation (sight picture retention), and speed of reload.

There was no sight picture retention with a 6".44 Rem Mag. I bought one with the intent of hunting Rocking Mountain mule deer. After every shot, it was necessary to reacquire sight picture, a deadly predicament were sight picture a charging mean critter. After a lot of practice, I realized that I needed to dedicate a day a week to practice before I -hopefully- acquired skill to hunt big game with it. I didn't have time to dedicate to becoming proficient with it. Sold it w/no seller's remorse and I don't miss it.
 
SATRP said:
Good Morning Jack O'Conner,

How do you know pepper spray is reliable deterrent?

As of this date, there has been no scientific testing to support pepper spray efficacy. It's far more marketing scheme than scientific. But then again, it would be impossible to create scientific protocol to test pepper spray.

If it were me, I'd go with a 1911A1 with 230 grain bullets. I could substitute a 4" .357 Mag loaded with 180 grain hard cast, but I'd rather have a 1911A1,

I used to own a 6" .44 Mag. I'd pay to see anyone accurately rapid fire 6 .44 Mag rounds. With standard factory rounds, .44 Mag recoil always jerked muzzle off target.

I'd rather hit a charging bear with 9 230 grain .45 Auto rounds, followed by 6 180 grain .357 Mag rounds than possibly one assured .44 Mag round.

There is a practical side of mean critter defense that is always neglected when discussing mean critter handguns. Always neglected are the very prominent facts of ease of carry, speed to battery (how fast one can get his handgun pointed at a threat), recoil mitigation (sight picture retention), and speed of reload.

There was no sight picture retention with a 6".44 Rem Mag. I bought one with the intent of hunting Rocking Mountain mule deer. After every shot, it was necessary to reacquire sight picture, a deadly predicament were sight picture a charging mean critter. After a lot of practice, I realized that I needed to dedicate a day a week to practice before I -hopefully- acquired skill to hunt big game with it. I didn't have time to dedicate to becoming proficient with it. Sold it w/no seller's remorse and I don't miss it.
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I'm not one of these Pepper Spray enthusiats but I do have several Counter Assault canisters. It will never be my first option if I find myself being charged.

I don't understand your confidence in 45 Auto. I have 45 Super HC, 10mm HC but I still rely on revolvers for giant creatures. 45 ACP might be good for a wolf or lion... but a big bear?... no way. I have some +P 45 Hardcast that might do the trick for a black bear, but that is not comparable to a big bear.

I can shoot 44 mag 305-330gr HC accurately and rapidly 3 at 15 yards and then 3 at 10 yards. As rapidly as a semi auto? No. But I train in those situations to look over the sights. You're only going to be relying on reflex if you are surprised in a close encounter. My groups are 6-8 or 6-10 inches center mass of a 15x20 target with no crosshairs or circles... just a piece of cardboard. My groups are the same with a 460V. I can get tighter groups if I take more time but that is not the point of the drill.

So what 45 Auto projectiles are you using?
 
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Hi American Man,

Fed 230 grain HST LE +P.

It isn't the .45 Auto cartridge alone that has guided my preference. It's the entire package: Springfield Armory TRP 1911-A1 .45 ACP, which has been flawless to date.

A 1911A1 has to be the easiest big bore handgun to carry. It is the fastest to battery of any big bore handgun I've carried. It's simple design makes it extremely reliable. When loaded with 230 grain +P ammo, I can rapidly fire it while keeping its muzzle on a threat. I can reload 8 more rounds within a few seconds or less.

The .45 Auto isn't in the same league as a .44 Rem Mag in terms of power. I could hunt everything in North America including the largest bears with a 16" barreled lever action rifle chambered for .44 Rem Mag.

From direct experience, a 6" Model 29 is a huge, heavy handgun. It's weight and length do not mitigate its awesome recoil. And I'm not recoil averse.

When confronted by any thread -bipedal or beast- it's crucial to get a handgun's muzzle pointed at a threat ASAP and ready to fire.

If the largest predators are killed every year by arrows leaving strings at ~300 FPS, a .45 Auto would be far more formidable.

A .357 Mag would be my first choice for wilderness survival due to its versatility. But for self-defense, it's hard to beat a good quality 1911A1.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/de...s-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz65kUSoXpL

https://www.nationalparkstraveler.o...grizzly-denali-national-park-and-preserve6320

Lots of accounts of the .45 Auto used successfully against mean critters.

BTW, I had thought about converting a 1911A1 to .45 Super. However, after analysis, I've concluded it would offer marginal if any benefit vis-a-vis a .45 Auto when loaded with 230 grain +P. But that's merely my opinion. It works for me. It might not work for others.

I'm considering buying a 3" .357 Mag revolver for wilderness survival. So far, I'm thinking I could make a TRP just as effective.

Another important factor: I know this borders on heresy, but a good quality semiauto is more reliable than a revolver. A double-action revolver has far more moving parts than a 1911A1. When a revolver fails, it's almost always catastrophic, meaning it becomes a throwing weapon. I can completely field strip a 1911A1 within a minute, but that's rarely necessary to return a malfunctioning semiauto to full functioning mode. However, carrying a spare firing pin is wise; however, I've never experienced a firing pin breakage.
 
I cannot find scientific research on bear spray. Lots of anecdotal accounts of its efficacy, but nothing scientific.

My guess is it would be impossible to conduct scientific experimentation on wild bears. It's be impossible to control for all confounding factors isolating bear spray as causal of stopping bear charges. It would be impossible to replicate circumstances causing bears to charge. It would be almost impossible to compile a scientifically significant bear population. It might be less than almost impossible to assemble bears in control and variable groups.

I'd have no difficulty writing that there is no scientific evident of bear spray efficacy.

I do know that were a person to become disabled by bear spray, he'd become a bear's dinner.
 
SATRP said:
Hi American Man,

Fed 230 grain HST LE +P.

It isn't the .45 Auto cartridge alone that has guided my preference. It's the entire package: Springfield Armory TRP 1911-A1 .45 ACP, which has been flawless to date.

A 1911A1 has to be the easiest big bore handgun to carry. It is the fastest to battery of any big bore handgun I've carried. It's simple design makes it extremely reliable. When loaded with 230 grain +P ammo, I can rapidly fire it while keeping its muzzle on a threat. I can reload 8 more rounds within a few seconds or less.

The .45 Auto isn't in the same league as a .44 Rem Mag in terms of power. I could hunt everything in North America including the largest bears with a 16" barreled lever action rifle chambered for .44 Rem Mag.

From direct experience, a 6" Model 29 is a huge, heavy handgun. It's weight and length do not mitigate its awesome recoil. And I'm not recoil averse.

When confronted by any thread -bipedal or beast- it's crucial to get a handgun's muzzle pointed at a threat ASAP and ready to fire.

If the largest predators are killed every year by arrows leaving strings at ~300 FPS, a .45 Auto would be far more formidable.

A .357 Mag would be my first choice for wilderness survival due to its versatility. But for self-defense, it's hard to beat a good quality 1911A1.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/de...s-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz65kUSoXpL

https://www.nationalparkstraveler.o...grizzly-denali-national-park-and-preserve6320

Lots of accounts of the .45 Auto used successfully against mean critters.

BTW, I had thought about converting a 1911A1 to .45 Super. However, after analysis, I've concluded it would offer marginal if any benefit vis-a-vis a .45 Auto when loaded with 230 grain +P. But that's merely my opinion. It works for me. It might not work for others.

I'm considering buying a 3" .357 Mag revolver for wilderness survival. So far, I'm thinking I could make a TRP just as effective.

Another important factor: I know this borders on heresy, but a good quality semiauto is more reliable than a revolver. A double-action revolver has far more moving parts than a 1911A1. When a revolver fails, it's almost always catastrophic, meaning it becomes a throwing weapon. I can completely field strip a 1911A1 within a minute, but that's rarely necessary to return a malfunctioning semiauto to full functioning mode. However, carrying a spare firing pin is wise; however, I've never experienced a firing pin breakage.
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I get your points. I have 45 HST as well and it is a great round and works great in all my 45s. But I have to ask if a grizzly or larger brown is what you are including in what you call beast or mean critter?

I get the arrow analogy, but that is really an ambush on the bear and not a surprise encounter with a charging bear. Are you familiar with how powerful and fast a grizzly is or are you talking about a black bear? And I mean no disrespect at all when I ask that question. I believe some people have just been pretty lucky out there. I know there are some stories out there of people taking down a grizzly with a 9mm and a 45 such as the story in your link. But being in the presence of one led me to believe my 44 was not enough.
 
ohh, where to start...we've wandered more than a bit off topic...

The OP was very specific, .357 Rem Maximum vs. .44 Magnum for grizzly/polarbear defense.

So, bringing in other calibers is off topic.
Arrows are off topic.
Bear Spray is off topic.

Want to discuss the paper ballistics of various .357 Max and .44 Mag loads? Fine.

Want to discuss any degree of practicality, it gest tougher, because .357 Max repeaters are few and far between and most of the few you will find are SA revolvers. Which does not mean they're useless, only that they're rare and the .44 Mag is not.

SO discuss a rare round designed to do a certain thing in a shooting game, vs a common big bore round designed for hunting, and fairly large beasts at that.

IS a S&W M29 too big and too heavy for you? Once it was huge, today its the smaller and lighter DA .44 Mag commonly found.

Want to shoot full power .44 Mag fast?? Port the gun! Or get a Desert Eagle.
Really big and heavy damps recoil a lot. But, there's no free lunch, and there's no magic bullet.

Lots of things have the paper energy to kill even the biggest bear. If you are motivated enough, you could even do it with a pointy stick. Which is what one fellow actually had to do a few decades ago. Bowhunter, surprised and attacked by a grizzly bear, wound up killing the bear by STABBING (not shooting) it with a broadhead arrow. (aka pointy stick). Which is the way arrows work, not by velocity, but by shoving a inch+ wide razorblade through part of the animal that bleeds heavily. Comparing arrows to a .45, or any other sidearm is apples and oranges.

.357 Max sure has the power needed, so does the .44 Mag. Personally, I'd go with the .44 Mag, but then, I think bigger bullets tend to work better. ;)
 
Hi American Man,

I'm good with pursuit of Socratic knowledge.

I've hunted in griz country in Idaho and Wyoming. I have never nor will I ever carry a handgun while I'm hunting big game with a high powered rifle. Hence, I agree with your advice that a handgun in not enough gun when a beast that wants to eat me is fixing to try.

I've fished in Rocky Mountain states and the Eastern Sierra. I've seen more black bears while fishing than hunting. A shoulder fired weapon while fishing is useless. I want a big handgun that I can get pointed at a charging anything as fast as possible.

This is what works for me. It might not work for everyone.

Any weapon is useless if it cannot be deployed in a huge hurry. The way I see it, getting 230 grain .45 Auto rounds on a charging bear is a whole lot better than bringing to battery a .44 Mag and larger handgun.

I've yet to carry a big bore handgun that's as easy to carry as a 1911A1.

I've yet to carry a big bore handgun that's as fast to battery than a 1911A1.

I've fired large cartridge handguns. I'd pay to see anyone accurately and rapidly fire a Model 29 into a silhouette at 10 yards and place all 6 in center mass...or even on target. It won't be done with a .454 Casull. That's why I call them one-and-done handguns: a person would be lucky to get off one well placed round. As you've noted, speed of griz and recoil of big cartridge revolvers would make an accurate follow up shot a prayer.

I know how fast I can accurately empty a 1911A1 magazine, and how fast I can reload 8 more.

After a few decades in mean critter country to include griz country, I've figured out that accurately placing a lot of big bullets on a charging bear works best for me. It might not work for everyone, but it works best for me.

I do own good quality revolvers. For reliability, I'd take a good quality semi every time.

A fully loaded Springfield Armory 1911-A1 TRP .45 Auto, which is the production version of SA's famed FBI Custom Shop 1911-A1, is money in the bank. I've yet to experience a single issue with mine. It shoots everything loaded into it, and it's one of the most if not the most accurate handgun I've ever fired, and that includes vaunted Sigs.

Finally, in comparison to mega-magnum cartridges that require heavy revolvers to fire, the .45 Auto seems, at superficial glance, to lack ability to dispatch jackrabbits. However, in reality, it is an extremely powerful cartridge that can be fired in what might be the most ergonomic of all handguns. My guess is no other handgun ever created has the mystical, natural point of a full-size 1911A1. A 1911A1 has a more divine point than an index finger.

As a comprehensive package, I'll take a 1911A1 .45 Auto every single time.
 
Hi .44 AMP,

That's not the way people talk. A point of a topic will lead to discovery of knowledge in related topic.

It's entirely reasonable to transition to the NFL draft when discussing NCAA QB's. It's how people normally talk.
 
SATRP said:
Hi American Man,

I'm good with pursuit of Socratic knowledge.

I've hunted in griz country in Idaho and Wyoming. I have never nor will I ever carry a handgun while I'm hunting big game with a high powered rifle. Hence, I agree with your advice that a handgun in not enough gun when a beast that wants to eat me is fixing to try.

I've fished in Rocky Mountain states and the Eastern Sierra. I've seen more black bears while fishing than hunting. A shoulder fired weapon while fishing is useless. I want a big handgun that I can get pointed at a charging anything as fast as possible.

This is what works for me. It might not work for everyone.

Any weapon is useless if it cannot be deployed in a huge hurry. The way I see it, getting 230 grain .45 Auto rounds on a charging bear is a whole lot better than bringing to battery a .44 Mag and larger handgun.

I've yet to carry a big bore handgun that's as easy to carry as a 1911A1.

I've yet to carry a big bore handgun that's as fast to battery than a 1911A1.

I've fired large cartridge handguns. I'd pay to see anyone accurately and rapidly fire a Model 29 into a silhouette at 10 yards and place all 6 in center mass...or even on target. It won't be done with a .454 Casull. That's why I call them one-and-done handguns: a person would be lucky to get off one well placed round. As you've noted, speed of griz and recoil of big cartridge revolvers would make an accurate follow up shot a prayer.

I know how fast I can accurately empty a 1911A1 magazine, and how fast I can reload 8 more.

After a few decades in mean critter country to include griz country, I've figured out that accurately placing a lot of big bullets on a charging bear works best for me. It might not work for everyone, but it works best for me.

I do own good quality revolvers. For reliability, I'd take a good quality semi every time.

A fully loaded Springfield Armory 1911-A1 TRP .45 Auto, which is the production version of SA's famed FBI Custom Shop 1911-A1, is money in the bank. I've yet to experience a single issue with mine. It shoots everything loaded into it, and it's one of the most if not the most accurate handgun I've ever fired, and that includes vaunted Sigs.

Finally, in comparison to mega-magnum cartridges that require heavy revolvers to fire, the .45 Auto seems, at superficial glance, to lack ability to dispatch jackrabbits. However, in reality, it is an extremely powerful cartridge that can be fired in what might be the most ergonomic of all handguns. My guess is no other handgun ever created has the mystical, natural point of a full-size 1911A1. A 1911A1 has a more divine point than an index finger.

As a comprehensive package, I'll take a 1911A1 .45 Auto every single time.
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I won't say I agree with you, but I understand where you are coming from. For HD and medium game, I think your set up is excellent. Personally, I just would not be comfortable with +P 45 ACP in any situation with the bigger creatures. Not that I would rely on 357 or 357 Max, but I think a HC in either is going to hit and penetrate more than 45 acp... not counting 45 Super. The CNS is the target and depending on angle, it could be covered by a foot or two of fat, bone and muscle and the skull is tougher than a kevlar helmet.

The minimum would be 44... 300gr and above.
 
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Proof's in the bleedin' puddin'. :rolleyes:

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/10/al...arge-with-glock-10mm-on-elmendorf-richardson/

Forget all the official recommendations of sissified bear-perfume sprays. :rolleyes:

Just use a 10mm and shoot the dang thang. That's what Demark's Sirius Patrol soldiers do if attacked by polar bears while out in the arctic regions of Greenland. No happy tree-hugger talk. It's point-n-shoot.

10mm Gen4 Glock 20 for the big win against an aggressive bruin.

'Nuff said right there.
 
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