TruthTellers
New member
That's obvious tho: phased plasma rifle in 40 watt range.
.357 Rem Maximum vs .44 Mag for grizzly/polar bear defense?
- Thread starter MC_MuHyeon
- Start date
TruthTellers
New member
I take it then for the ram silhouette shooting it was meant to be from a rifle, not a revolver?
Whether it was for revolver or rifle, why wasn't the .41 Magnum used instead? It shoots flatter than .44 or larger calibers, but has more power than .357 at those distances and .41 had been established in the market for 20 years prior to the advent of .357 Max.
Not saying .357 Max is bad, I've thought about getting one in a rifle because it can shoot .38 and .357 Mag, but for such a specific purpose as metallic silhouette shooting I can't see how .41 wouldn't have been a excellent choice.
There's different categories for pistol and rifle.
The .41 mag is in a different class than the .357 mag/max.
At the time the .357 max was introduced the silhouette rules were very strict.
Guns had to conform to rules that limited the work allowed on the guns, the physical size of the gun as well as a price ceiling (which kept guns like Freedom Arms out of the competition & barrels longer than 8 3/8".
The original intent of the games - both pistol and rifle - was to keep the competition as free from an equipment race as possible. More or less - like a "friendly match for beers" at a local range using a 100% stock gun that any Joe Sixpack could walk into a store and buy right off the shelf.
The mid 70's were the "golden age" of the simple rules - just after the NRA got involved until about 1982 or there abouts when the rules really loosened up- which BTW coincides pretty much with the introduction of the .357 Max.
Since the rules of the game not only called for shooting a gun with the power to topple the heavy steel ram, the gun had to be robust enough to withstand the pounding of shooting a two day match of 40 shots at a time - of extreme loads.
The guns themselves had to be robust enough to withstand the rigors of shooting those extreme loads - - and maintain sufficient accuracy to be able to hit that tiny "sweet spot" on the ram @ 200 meters. In addition - the guns had to conform to the strict rules.
Another item to consider about the .41 Remington Magnum is - the only factory stock gun chambered for that round was the S&W N-frame. S&W N-frames of the day had a dismal track record of holding up. I'm not sure if the Ruger Blackhawk was available in .41 mag or not in that time frame. (mid 1978's to early 1980's) If it was, stores sure as heck avoided stocking them.
Then there's the huge "Dirty Harry" factor. Nobody, but nobody, wanted a .41 when everyone knew Harry carried a .44.
The .41 mag also suffered from a total lack of respect. Quite a few people considered it a "flop" or mistake.
You have the advantage of looking at figures based on what goes on today. Mid 1970 through early 1980's we far different time for shooters.
The .41 mag is in a different class than the .357 mag/max.
At the time the .357 max was introduced the silhouette rules were very strict.
Guns had to conform to rules that limited the work allowed on the guns, the physical size of the gun as well as a price ceiling (which kept guns like Freedom Arms out of the competition & barrels longer than 8 3/8".
The original intent of the games - both pistol and rifle - was to keep the competition as free from an equipment race as possible. More or less - like a "friendly match for beers" at a local range using a 100% stock gun that any Joe Sixpack could walk into a store and buy right off the shelf.
The mid 70's were the "golden age" of the simple rules - just after the NRA got involved until about 1982 or there abouts when the rules really loosened up- which BTW coincides pretty much with the introduction of the .357 Max.
Since the rules of the game not only called for shooting a gun with the power to topple the heavy steel ram, the gun had to be robust enough to withstand the pounding of shooting a two day match of 40 shots at a time - of extreme loads.
The guns themselves had to be robust enough to withstand the rigors of shooting those extreme loads - - and maintain sufficient accuracy to be able to hit that tiny "sweet spot" on the ram @ 200 meters. In addition - the guns had to conform to the strict rules.
Another item to consider about the .41 Remington Magnum is - the only factory stock gun chambered for that round was the S&W N-frame. S&W N-frames of the day had a dismal track record of holding up. I'm not sure if the Ruger Blackhawk was available in .41 mag or not in that time frame. (mid 1978's to early 1980's) If it was, stores sure as heck avoided stocking them.
Then there's the huge "Dirty Harry" factor. Nobody, but nobody, wanted a .41 when everyone knew Harry carried a .44.
The .41 mag also suffered from a total lack of respect. Quite a few people considered it a "flop" or mistake.
You have the advantage of looking at figures based on what goes on today. Mid 1970 through early 1980's we far different time for shooters.
FrankenMauser
New member
When I want something "Magnum", I grab one of the .44s or the .480 Ruger.
But, most of the time, you'll find a 9mm on me when I'm in bear and wolf country.
Occasionally, it's 'just' .32 H&R.
Bears are not immune to smaller cartridges, nor are they armor plated.
I'm a fan of .357 Max. But it seems like a poor choice when considering polar bear defense. When in the middle of nowhere, oddball cartridges are not the best idea.
But, most of the time, you'll find a 9mm on me when I'm in bear and wolf country.
Occasionally, it's 'just' .32 H&R.
Bears are not immune to smaller cartridges, nor are they armor plated.
I'm a fan of .357 Max. But it seems like a poor choice when considering polar bear defense. When in the middle of nowhere, oddball cartridges are not the best idea.
"...A charging bear can be moving at you at 50 feet per second..." Yogi can run at 35 MPH. That's 100 yards in under 6 seconds.
Don't think the .357 Rem Maximum is loaded by somebody named Black Dog Ammunition at the tune of $78 to $81 per 50. $57.99 per 50(180's only) from PCI via Graf's. And it is NOT usable in a .357 Mag revolver. It'd be a custom made firearm too.
In any case, no handgun round will stop anything in its tracks. And you will never be fast enough.
"...why wasn't the .41 Magnum used instead?..." Because the cartridge was never terribly popular.
Don't think the .357 Rem Maximum is loaded by somebody named Black Dog Ammunition at the tune of $78 to $81 per 50. $57.99 per 50(180's only) from PCI via Graf's. And it is NOT usable in a .357 Mag revolver. It'd be a custom made firearm too.
In any case, no handgun round will stop anything in its tracks. And you will never be fast enough.
"...why wasn't the .41 Magnum used instead?..." Because the cartridge was never terribly popular.
Carriertxv
New member
Like said above I can confirm. My wife and I were charged by a 400 or 500 lb male grizzly a few years ago. We were in Banff National park so no weapons other than bear spray. Whether the spray worked or it was a bluff charge we don’t know but I can tell you the only gun I believe that would have come close to working is a short shotgun. That bear came across 40 or so yards of ground across a creek and stopped 10 yards from us in seconds.
Maybe some of you who have served and have faced combat could stay calm and used a handgun to kill it but I have not and no way could have come close to hitting that bear with a handgun.
Now having a handgun for backup as well as a 12 gauge with slugs and buckshot I agree but only a handgun not so sure.
Maybe some of you who have served and have faced combat could stay calm and used a handgun to kill it but I have not and no way could have come close to hitting that bear with a handgun.
Now having a handgun for backup as well as a 12 gauge with slugs and buckshot I agree but only a handgun not so sure.
It doesn't matter much, but between the 2 I'd rather have 44 mag simply because it is easier to find good ammo for. Carry the one you will actually have on you instead of in camp.
Forget energy numbers, they are useless in determining performance. Penetration is all that matters and that is determined more by bullet choice than cartridge. A 147 gr hardcast from a 9mm at 1000 fps will penetrate 6' and shoot all the way though any of the big bears.
The most important thing is to have a gun and use it. Read up on some REAL facts instead of guesses and old wives tales.
https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/ha...r-attack-73-cases-96-effective/#axzz5yVe12kTf
https://www.wideopenspaces.com/alaska-man-kills-charging-brown-bear-with-a-9mm-pistol/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZBVnquaLXM
Forget energy numbers, they are useless in determining performance. Penetration is all that matters and that is determined more by bullet choice than cartridge. A 147 gr hardcast from a 9mm at 1000 fps will penetrate 6' and shoot all the way though any of the big bears.
The most important thing is to have a gun and use it. Read up on some REAL facts instead of guesses and old wives tales.
https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/ha...r-attack-73-cases-96-effective/#axzz5yVe12kTf
https://www.wideopenspaces.com/alaska-man-kills-charging-brown-bear-with-a-9mm-pistol/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZBVnquaLXM
BillSussman
New member
The best shooters I know are regular civilians that go to the range all the time. Most military/police can shoot their 9mm well enough to quality every year but that is about it. I'm in the military and don't know of any units that even use a 357 revolver let alone a 44 or 500.
Given that only three revolvers, (the Ruger, the Dan Wesson and the Seville), were chambered in the Maximum and all three are long since discontinued with two falling into the collector category and the fact that ammo is virtually non-existent, the OP's question is rather pointless. No offense.
The .44 Magnum is the hands down winner. Everybody and their brother makes a .44 Magnum. Off-the-shelf mild .44 Magnum target ammo exists as "cowboy loads". At the other end of the spectrum, extreme power loads (like Buffalo Bore) are also readily obtainable. The .44 possibly has the widest variety of factory loaded ammo of any handgun caliber.
The .44 Magnum is the hands down winner. Everybody and their brother makes a .44 Magnum. Off-the-shelf mild .44 Magnum target ammo exists as "cowboy loads". At the other end of the spectrum, extreme power loads (like Buffalo Bore) are also readily obtainable. The .44 possibly has the widest variety of factory loaded ammo of any handgun caliber.
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No it is not a question of if I can not do it therefore no one can. The point I am trying to make is that if you do not practice, practice practice with whatever gun you plan to use for bear protection, than you may develop a false sense of security in believing that you can be proficient with a firearm that has a lot of recoil due to caliber size.
By the way have you ever been so frightened that you can not think straight and your heart is racing so hard from fear? If not, than do me a favor, next time you go to the range empty your firearm at your target as fast as the range allows. Than do 50 jumping jacks and 20 pushups and shoot at your target as fast as it is allowed at the range. See how your accuracy is affected...even than it does not compare to being afraid for your life.
I'm trying to give good practical advice so I would appreciate it if you would not act like the CNN journalists and attack me without you having a clue of who I am and how many times I have shot in my military career.
Being ex-military in my case retired or being a law enforcement officer does not necessarily make anyone an expert in firearms or anything. The advice I give is not aimed at experience people that have been around firearms for a long time. Those that are experienced will either agree or disagree with what I have printed and than point out mistakes or reinforce points I may not have known or forgot.
My advice is meant for the novice person just buying his or her first firearm or are researching and don't even know what questions to ask. You being a veteran and a LEO should have a more positive attitude and with your many experiences you have encountered should extrapolate from those experiences and give more sage advice as you obviously have the wisdom from practical experiences, instead of acting like the journalists and their ilk.
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That transcends into a lot of area's, it is called the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Been there, done that. I attended a SWAT school in 1983, not long after getting out of the Army. We had to run 1/4 mile in gas masks right up the the firing line, peel the mask off and run the stress course. Huge eye opener.
It was not intended as an attack, but an observation. I know for a fact that the US Military does not use magnum revolvers, the Navy Seals did for a while though. I have fired tens of thousands of rounds through various magnum revolvers and knew right away that your blanket statement was wrong. You only mentioned your military career as a qualifier, so the assumption is that you have not fired a magnum revolver enough to form an educated opinion. If I am wrong I apologize.
Correct, there is a difference between 30 years of experience and 1 year of experience 30 times.
I did disagree, you apparently disliked the way I disagreed.
Perhaps you should have prefaced it in such a way. I see far too many people who fall into the category I mentioned.
I do have a positive attitude, but I call BS when I see it. Did I lie? Is that what you are accusing me of? Prove me wrong, how long have you carried a magnum revolver, what training have you had with one, how many competitive events have you participated in shooting one?
I personally carried a 357 magnum for about 20 years on and off duty and a 44 Magnum for about 15 years off duty. Though lately I am more likely to just carry my Glock for most duties.
"I do have a positive attitude, but I call BS when I see it. Did I lie? Is that what you are accusing me of? Prove me wrong, how long have you carried a magnum revolver, what training have you had with one, how many competitive events have you participated in shooting one?"
No you have not lied but neither have I given any BS in my statements. Simply stated if one has not practiced with a magnum that they are in for a surprise when shooting one. I practice twice a week about 200 rounds each time just shy of max on my reloads. I've had my revolver several months so I have shot several thousand rounds. I do my practice double action only 99% of the time and I shoot several hundred rounds of 22lr off my 617 revolver to maintain proficiency in double action also. Based on my personal experience I stated that if I had trouble maintaining a good shot group that it would be difficult to hit your mark in a more stressful scenario like a bear charging especially in shooting double action, and if this is going to be a recent firearm purchase and one has no experience with the firearm that you are merely not going to be as proficient as you would be with whatever firearms one carries and practices with. I do believe that the OP mentioned that he does not plan to be in that scenario frequently. The fact that I only have a .357 magnum I know that the 44 magnum will be harder to shoot accurately due to the recoil and if you are being charged by an angry bear I doubt you will be shooting single action only.
No you have not lied but neither have I given any BS in my statements. Simply stated if one has not practiced with a magnum that they are in for a surprise when shooting one. I practice twice a week about 200 rounds each time just shy of max on my reloads. I've had my revolver several months so I have shot several thousand rounds. I do my practice double action only 99% of the time and I shoot several hundred rounds of 22lr off my 617 revolver to maintain proficiency in double action also. Based on my personal experience I stated that if I had trouble maintaining a good shot group that it would be difficult to hit your mark in a more stressful scenario like a bear charging especially in shooting double action, and if this is going to be a recent firearm purchase and one has no experience with the firearm that you are merely not going to be as proficient as you would be with whatever firearms one carries and practices with. I do believe that the OP mentioned that he does not plan to be in that scenario frequently. The fact that I only have a .357 magnum I know that the 44 magnum will be harder to shoot accurately due to the recoil and if you are being charged by an angry bear I doubt you will be shooting single action only.
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That is the statement you made that I take issue with. You are projecting, you do not believe you could do it, so nobody can. The rest is smoke and mirrors.
As agtman said, get a good 10mm and rock on. Has the power and penetration and is easier to shoot than a magnum revolver. Personally I will stick with the 44 magnum, I have 4 of them.
@ Nanuk, please have a good , no great life and thank you very very much for your service to our country as a soldier and thank you even more for your service as a LEO .
It is obvious that we both agree to disagree and my statements were made for the novice shooter not for the expert like yourself. Regardless, thank you for your response and I acknowledge where you come from.
It is obvious that we both agree to disagree and my statements were made for the novice shooter not for the expert like yourself. Regardless, thank you for your response and I acknowledge where you come from.
Super interesting thread (now on its 8th page) on an Alaskan shooting forum filled with posts mostly by the folks who have to deal with AK bear encounters on a daily basis 
...
http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/161911-quot-WHICH-quot-10MM-Handgun
... http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/161911-quot-WHICH-quot-10MM-Handgun
