.357 magnum 125 grain vs 158

NEVER NEVER NEVER shoot at anything you cannot see.

The guy that was screaming at your front door might have just become the police man banging on the door to see if the guy his partner is chasing down the hall right now just killed someone in your apartment.

NEVER NEVER NEVER shoot at anything you cannot see.
Click to expand...

While this is likely true in 99.9% of circumstances, there are a very few instances in which shooting at something you cannot see could be a legitimate course of action.

Situation 1: you have positively identified that an intruder is in your home and have retreated to a "safe room". You are absolutely certain that the intruder is still present in your home and he is not just banging on the door, but actively attempting to break it down. In this circumstance, I could see shooting your attacker through the door.

Situation 2: you are being actively attacked in darkness. Your attacker is at contact distance but, due to the lighting, you cannot see him. In this situation, shooting your attacker, even though you cannot see him, would be a legitimate, and quite possibly only, viable course of action.

Situation 3: you are accosted while seated in your vehicle and, for whatever reason (heavy traffic, disabled vehicle) you are unable to flee. While you can see and clearly identify your attacker, you are forced, due to the way you are positioned, to shoot through part of your vehicle at a part of your attackers body which you cannot clearly see. Like situation 2, shooting at something (or at least part of something) that you cannot see may be your only viable option.
 
"cannot see him" and cannot see all of him or even see well enough to identify later are not quite the same. It is rare (nearly impossible) to be in a situation so dark that you cannot see anything.
 
Guess I'm dead in the water.........

But, I'm going to muddy the water here. I am not a professional gun carrier, LEO or anything. I'm just an old civilian. But I'm pretty content to rely on my .357 magnum, 110gr. LHJHP's from WWB. I've seen what they'll do to a watermelon or big pumpkin. I can't afford ballitic Gel to test them on.

And, I do believe, IIRC, that Marshall & Sanow had some good statistics on the 110 gr., 357 magnum LSJHP cartridges.
Sorry, it's what I use.:)
 
if I find myself in the position of being in such immediate and overwhelming peril that I am forced to friggin SHOOT SOMEONE to save my life, I'm going to want the biggest, baddest, penetrating'est, loudest, brightest cannon I can manage to get my hands on. Overpenetration should be about the 840th thing to worry about on your list of peeves in this situation. GET THE JOB DONE first, then worry about what-ifs.
 
My turn to muddy the water:

I compromise, I use a 150 LSWC (cast with WWs). Softer then most people claim is good for SWCs. But they work. I don't want to count on HPs to open up, they don't always, even out of a hyper velocity 357.

I've shot moose (several) and they work. I even shot a buffalo (granted the first round bounced off his forehead), but it worked.

But except for the buffalo, the others were in my LE days. I'm not in the game any more. I don't carry a 357 (though I still like to play with them). I carry a 642 in my pocket with the same bullet (Lyman 358477) that I used in LE.

357s are nice, but you never have them when you need them. In a home envision situation, I would be afraid my Model 28 would be on the bed stand while I'm sitting on the couch. It may be in the glove compartment in the car while I'm in the drivers seat.

My 642 is always in my pocket. Sitting on the couch or driving a car. Its handy when I run across rattlers in the yard, or to dispatch a muffed shot deer. (Never had the above bullet out of a snubby fail to exit a deer's neck).

I've came out of the shop at night and dispatched a coyote trying to get into my chicken pen.

I want a gun thats available, not setting on the night stand.

OK that's the reasoning I don't carry a 357 now days. On to the subject at hand.

When I first decided to go to the pocket pistol, I realized I needed something that would always be with me. A small gun in the pocket beats a heavy revolver in the truck every time.

So I decided to try some 125+Ps out of my 642, comparing them to my 150 Gn SWCs. I decided to shoot both into some wet phone books. The below picture shows the results, Both penetrated equally. (Remember I don't use HARD cast bullets). Another thing we need to consider, most fix sight revolvers are designed (sighted in) for 158 grn bullets. Lighter bullets normally shoot low.

This is just one man's opinion, based on my experience. I don't have the testing labs the FBI has, but I'm not impressed with the FBI (a subject I wont go into here). Controlled environments don't really mean a whole lot in the real world, I've seen enough autopsy's to know that.

Oh as a side note, the love of my life, my 14 year old grand daughter's bed room is at the other side of house from mine, NO WAY IN HELL WOULD I TOUCH OFF A 357 IN MY HOUSE. I've done training, shooting through walls and such. 357s do over penetrate be it 125s or 158s.

342%20%20bullets%20002.jpg
 
This is an intresting thread. I have a model 66 3" and a model 19 4". I don't shoot many 125 grs because of potential forcing cone damage. The 158 gr. never was thought to cause problems. With guys getting larger I want all the penetration I can get. I'm going to switch to the 158 JHP. Thanks, Lyle

If you can't shoot faster than the other guy, shoot straighter. Chic Gaylord
 
I carry 125 grainer's in .38 or .357 for defensive purposes. They hit point of aim good for me. You can't go wrong with either for penetration with the 357 magnum. Their are people carrying 9mm, and smaller caliber defensive guns with lighter bullets. They work. The .357 in 125 or 158 will do it.
 
Water-man is going to go nuts, although my semi-autos stay loaded w/hp's, I find myself, more often than not, in the vicinity of my S&W Model 58 loaded with a handload consisting of 210 grn. SWC in front of a helluva lot of H110:eek:
Sorry for the non-.357 hi-jack.
 
158 grain JHP loads seem like the obvious winners to me. They generally get better but not excessive penetration, expand well, have a lower risk of fragmenting, and are easier on guns and probably shooters as well.
 
I like the 125 grain and 110 grain 357s.

From my S&W 640 they seem to be more accurate than the heavier 357s.

in my marlin carbine I like the heavier ammo.
 
answering the original question (people aren't 'deer')

The reason is simple: Actual people-shooting proved the effectiveness of the 125g as compared to the heavier bullet.

(Enough so that it was 'copied' as the 357 SIG autoloading cartridge for modern LE use in modern LE handgun choices.)



"To ignore history......." means all too often one is an arrogant (thinking one knows better) idiot, ay?
 
I shot 125gr out of my 4in & 158gr. The 158gr shoots more to POA,But the
125gr Rem UMC seems HOT as all get out :eek: The 158gr is easier on the
old bones as I reload the 158gr. When I CC I use the 125gr Go figure ;)
Y/D
 
Ok ill really muddy the waters. I personally load the 180 grain in my sons SP101. So now what. Listen, i don't get why some are still hung up on this "overpenetration myth". Its bogus. christcorp put it best, what if you miss, which you stand a great chance of doing, then what. Is the bullet mysteriously going to sense that you missed and fall to the ground doing no harm to anyone behind him. I think not. The smart bullets haven't been released yet so get over this overpenetration thing already. Bigger bullets do more damage, period. Damage causes the attacker to stop attacking. We simply can't carry what would be required to do the job on a 300 lb man loaded up on crack with one shot to the torso around the heart. For example, if i shot an attacker at 25 feet in the heart region of the body with my 454 Casull it doesn't matter how big he is or what he is on. With half his body removed guess what he won't be doing to me. But we cant carry these guns in public for self defense because then at that distance overpenetration would matter. I do carry that gun by the way but it is loaded with 45 colt for self defense. The whole point is that if you are going to base your protection on the premis of overpenetration then its best if you just carry a bb gun instead and take the chance you can kick the guys butt when you tick him off.
 
Over penetration, I guess any caliber striking a part of the body has the potential to exit the body. So my thought on this is just about any caliber one feels comfy carrying for SD can "over penetrate" and exit the body. Reliability would be my first choice for SD guns and I do not even think of over penetration when choosing a SD cartridge. Missing your intended target and hitting a by stander can be worse than a through and through.
 
I started with 125s in my SP101 3". Then bought a 6" S&W model 19. There are a number of articles discussing the 125 and the cutting of the top strap. I have since gone to all 158s. I load my 125's to +p in 38spcl brass for personal defense and plinking. 357 out of a short barrel is rude in both muzzle blast and volume. I carry 158s 357s in the woods and at deer camp.
 
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