.357 magnum 125 grain vs 158

"A 125 grain bullet may not reach a vital area, or penetrate a car or other barrier. "

Thinking in terms of home defense, I like the idea of a 125 gr with about 3.4 gr of Bullseye powder. I dont really want to shoot thru the wall. I dont even want to shoot thru the BG. I want it to go inside and bounce around.

I agree about the lack of penetration. But I'm hoping he doesn't drive into my house with his car. :D

Mike Mattera
 
I'm lazy this morning and did not read all the previous post...

my opinion.. I HATE shooting 125gr 357... just not a fun round to use... 158gr is much easier on me.

As for the 5% difference and the chance of over penetration with one or the other... It don't mean diddle in most cases.
 
Water-Man said:
Nate45...Since you're the one refuting what I'm saying then you should be doing the research to learn what you obviously don't know.

Nate45 apparantly did to some research along with a link to support his claim/refute. You, on the other hand, have done nothing but state what you think is fact without any souce to your claim. Here's a news flash. This board is what you call a discussion board. Stating what your earnest opinion is fine and dandy. Posting what you think is absolute fact without citing sources of your claim only welcomes fellow members to attack your statement like a pack of dogs on a three legged cat. And challenge they should.

Oh, and one other thing. Your insults don't help your argument........AT ALL.

So, as others have already asked, I pose the same. How 'bout them sources?
 
I have a feeling that Water-Man is done with this thread, but I'll explain my reasoning a bit more anyway. The FBI's standard of 12-16" is actually a bit excessive if you assume a straight-on shot to an average adult male. I am a fairly large person (6'4" and 280lbs) and the distance from the front of my chest to by back is roughly 10". The reason that the FBI's standards are as deep as they are is to compensate for a shot at an extremely large individual, one at an oblique angle or one that must pass through an extremity such as an arm before reaching the vital areas of the body.

Being that I am a pretty big guy, one of the most likely people to attack me would be someone of equal or larger size. On such a large individual, enhanced penetration is an asset and that is one of the reasons that I prefer the heavier 158grn bullets as well as the .357 Magnum cartridge.

Also, as far as overpenetration is concerned, I feel that that is an issue that is better addressed by tactics rather than equipment. Even if it passed completely through the target, my chosen loading (Remington 158grn SJHP) will still likely display good expansion and cause a good amount of damage to whatever anatomical structure that it hits. The best way, in my opinion, to minimize the risk to innocent bystanders is to adjust the angle of your shot. Taking a few steps to one side or taking a knee to adjust the path of your bullet is much easier to do in the heat of the moment that to reload your gun with more situtation-appropriate ammunition. As I said earlier, I simply assume that every shot I take will pass completely through the target and adjust my tactics accordingly.

To me, that is preferable to carrying something that might underpenetrate in one circumstance but might also overpenetrate in another. Also, the heavier bullet is less likely to be deflected or fragment and change its path through the body. This makes predicting its path once it leaves the target more reliable. What it basically boils down to is that the penetration characteristics of heavier bullets are usually more predictable than those of lighter ones.
 
If you are shooting both out of the same gun I would use which ever round I personally shot more accurately.

In the 38 specials I own,a Model 10 Smith and a Taurus Model 85 snub ,-for me-, that means a 158 grn bullet at a plus p rating.

Whatever round you and your 357 work together to put in the smallest group easily everytime use that one.

If I owned a 357 myself,I 'd be partial to the 158 grainer.

My now departed Dan Wesson six inch heavy barrel just ate those things up in a tiny little hole on target at 25 yards.

Closer,it was ridiculously easy to -single holes touching- shoot that round.
 
If I lived in a condo with neighbors on the other side of a common wall I'd likely shoot the 125 gn HP...or most likely a smaller caliber. Otherwise, I currently live in a house and use 158 Fed HP for SD in my 357. By the time a 158 HP makes it though one perp body, and/or one or more walls in my house it is well wasted when and if it has the energy to hit the neighbor's house 40' away. If it goes though windows all bets are off whether 125 or 158...and if this was a 30-06 I'd be looking at "over penetration" with a whole different attitude.
 
Tuttle8..I'll buy the part about the 'pack of dogs' bit and I'll also throw in the one about 'only lead a horse to water'. You boys enjoy shooting what you believe is the right choice in bullets. I always enjoy how some folks justify their choices.

Webley...You're correct about one thing. I am done with this tread.
 
Originally posted by Water-Man
Tuttle8..I'll buy the part about the 'pack of dogs' bit and I'll also throw in the one about 'only lead a horse to water'. You boys enjoy shooting what you believe is the right choice in bullets. I always enjoy how some folks justify their choices.

Webley...You're correct about one thing. I am done with this tread.

If you can't dazzle them with diamonds, baffle them with...:rolleyes:
 
If you ignored the "overpenetration controversy" does the 125 grain make a better choice than the 158 grain when it comes to damage to the target?
 
Bamaranger wrote:

Just to muddy the water.

Isn't the .357 pretty much accepted as being created to increase penetration on auto bodies and steel vests, as utilized by the auto bandits of the late 20's and 30's??

Now, that was with SWC or RN I guess, maybe even some type of FMJ or AP bullet.
Seems like they gave a special Reg. Mag to old Hoover himself.

Counting on a hollow point, from a handgun of any cal or bullet weight to expand in a gunfight and human torso is a roll of the dice, whether you need that expansion v. penetration, is THE question.

I agree with Bamaranger post. From what I have read over the years the 357 round replaced the 38 special round in LE because the RN 38 special round lacked the pentration in vehicles, windshields and steel vests. For most people in a regular HD or SD situation isn't the 38 special 158 gr SWCHP +P round good enough providing the person does his or her job? Shot placement is still key.
The subject of a 125 gr or 158 gr magnum round to me their is not much difference. Either will get the job done in a urban outdoor situation. Personally, I take my 38 special round.

roaddog28

Som
 
I understand WVFG may have been talking about law enforcement needs for handgun ammo, but are there any instances where the ability to penetrate a barrier is needed for self defense?

Sure. For example, at least in North Carolina a person in his/her home can, by statute, justifiably shoot through the front door to stop a would-be intruder from breaking down the door and forcibly entering the residence, if the person reasonably believes the intruder may kill or do serious bodily harm to anyone in the home or intends to commit a felony in the home:

§ 14‑51.1. Use of deadly physical force against an intruder.

(a) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence is justified in using any degree of force that the occupant reasonably believes is necessary, including deadly force, against an intruder to prevent a forcible entry into the home or residence or to terminate the intruder's unlawful entry (i) if the occupant reasonably apprehends that the intruder may kill or inflict serious bodily harm to the occupant or others in the home or residence, or (ii) if the occupant reasonably believes that the intruder intends to commit a felony in the home or residence.

(b) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence does not have a duty to retreat from an intruder in the circumstances described in this section.​

So if someone is outside your front door yelling "I'm gonna come in there and slit your throat" and kicking the door, you don't have to wait until they actually gain entry into your house -- you can shoot them through the front door.
 
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If you ignored the "overpenetration controversy" does the 125 grain make a better choice than the 158 grain when it comes to damage to the target?

There really is no controversy. water-man was just trying to stir the kettle, with no research. Since you own the shots where you miss the bad guy...all of those shots are sent into the community with none of the kinetic energy expended.

Both sjhp rounds have similar expansion (the 125 grain bullet does tend to fragment more than the 158 grain) and the 158 will penetrate deeper than the 125. Use what you shoot best

For me...it's the 158 grain bullets. Not all shots will be frontal shots. If, for example, the bullet needs to penetrate an arm of a thick BG before entering the torso I'd like to know the bullet can penetrate clothing, skin, muscle/bone, the layer of clothing upon exiting the arm, another layer of clothing entering the torso, then the next layer of skin, fat/muscle, maybe scapula and rib then...hopefully lung/heart and maybe even vertebra/spine.

It would be a pity if the bullet were to stop short of hitting something the BG might consider important.
 
Originally posted by Super-Dave
If you ignored the "overpenetration controversy" does the 125 grain make a better choice than the 158 grain when it comes to damage to the target?

It depends on the target. On a larger individual, the 158grn would probably be a bit more effective as it will expend its energy deeper into the target. On a more slightly built individual, the 125grn would probably be a bit better as it expends its energy more rapidly. Overall, I'd say there's probably not enough difference to lose any sleep over.
 
A 357 in a home defense situation will rob you of one tactical tool-YOUR HEARING!!!! I may also blind you with the flash. Course if you hit your target at close range with a 357 he is probably going to be on fire from the muzzle flash, unless his bleeding stops it.
 
A 357 in a home defense situation will rob you of one tactical tool-YOUR HEARING!!!! I may also blind you with the flash.

I see this quoted quite often, but I wonder how many have actually fired a .357 Magnum from a short barrel in low light. I have. I've fired WWB 110grn JHP from a Taurus M66 with a 3" barrel in low light without hearing protection and I've also done the same with Cor-Bon 140grn JHP from a S&W M66 with a 2 1/2" barrel. While not in low light, I've also fired S&B 158grn JSP from a Ruger SP101 with a 2 1/4" barrel without hearing protection. While the flash was noticeable and my ears did ring, I could still see just fine and was able to hear everything going on around me (please note that firing a gun without hearing protection is not something that I make a habit of as it does cause permanent hearing damage).
 
More mud

I shot a good bit of .357/125 ammo until the outfit went to flat guns.

One thing that was apparent was that flash seemed to vary a bit w/ the quality of ammo. Not only do you get the lates gee-whiz JHP w/ the big ticket ammo, but the powder gets treated w/ a flash suppressant, in some of the loads anyhow. None of the .357 full house is mild, but the quality factory ammo has a bit less flash, sometimes. I always thought Federal 125's seemed less in this dept. All of them are loud w/ much blast. We would get mixed ammo on the firing lines, and there was a distinct difference in the amount of flash, from some mfg'/loads to others.

I hadn't shot any real deal .357/125 in a long while. My .357 shooting of late has been mostly midrange 158 SWC in my 4" Ruger b-hawk, and some middle of the road mag power 158 JHP's which had been loaded for a carbine, but I ran some cylinderfulls through the Blackhawk too, just to see where'd they'd group.

This spring I couldn't resist an older M28 Hwy Patrolman, and in a fit of retro, bought that big ol' warrior. Put it on paper w/ .38 wadcutters. Then loaded some W-W 125' mag. WOW ! It was dusky dark and the flash was incredible. I was wearing plugs and muff's, so blast was not an issue, and the big Nframe handled all the fuss neatly. But I was surprised, having not shot any of the stuff in near 10-12 years, especially in reduced light! My mid range SWC's, and the middle of the manual 158 jHP were pretty tame in comparison.

The M28 is still zeroed w/ 125's. The stopping power figures and the rep of 125's is hard to ignore. It is serious ammo, but not for the ill prepared or faint hearted.
 
Fashionably late to the party . . .

First, the entire premise of the thread, Marshall and Sanow's one shot stop stuff, cannot be relied upon. If you do some research, you'll find that their "data" is so statistically improbable that it should be totally ignored. There are other problems with their data. Browse through some of the stuff at http://www.firearmstactical.com/. This has been debated ad nauseum but I just couldn't let this go by without comment.

I think that generally either 125 or 158 gr. JHP .357 rounds make for good defensive rounds. There was a "light and fast" trend for awhile in the 70s and the 125 gr. .357 was part of the trend. I'll also point out that only Nate45 has backed up his point with real data suggesting a particular 158 gr. load is marginally better than a particular 125 gr. load.
 
1. If a person believes that there is a "One Stop Shot" based on calibers, then they need to take some physics classes. The ONLY way there is a "One Stop Shot" is if you hit the CNA, which included the brain, or hit them in the spinal/cord. And this can be done with everything from a 22LR to a 500s&w. The only difference is that a larger diameter bullet has a slightly better chance of hitting a target, and a heavier bullet will generally penetrate further and again have a better chance of hitting a target. Target meaning the CNA Spine/cord.

2. Over penetration is a bogus concern. Both New York City and Los Angeles police departments have done shots fired studies of their officers, and found that on average, only about 27% of shots fired by police even hit their target. Now, assuming you, the common civilian under such stress will shoot similar to a trained police officer, you have a 3-1 better chance of totally MISSING your target than you do of worrying about over penetration. Missing the shot is the ultimate in over penetration. The next target is getting the bullet at full velocity.

3. Assuming you are a better shot that the local police, that you know how to maintain composure, and that you don't miss; then you should know exactly who/what your target is. If you are shooting at someone in a crowd, and/or with people behind them, then you deserve to go to jail. Just because you have a gun, doesn't make you the world's savior, nor does it mean you're suppose to shoot someone with it. Even police know when NOT to shoot. And assuming it's an infiltrator into your home, or a self defense act in an ally or on the street, there won't be innocent bystanders behind the criminal. And at that distance, you shouldn't be missing. (If you are, you need to get rid of the gun until you've practiced and become more proficient).

4. And even if you were foolish enough to shoot at someone who had a crowd of people behind them and the bullet was to over penetrate, it is so unlikely that there will be enough velocity and energy left to incur any real fatal injuries to the person beyond the criminal. Unless of course they were standing directly behind the bad guy at around 6 inches.

In the day of many 357 magnums, they used a lot of flat nose type bullets like wadcutters and semi's. Very easy to over penetrate these rounds. Same with most any solid or FMJ type bullet. The #1 main purpose of a hollow point bullet is to slow it down, reduce penetration, and eliminate the prospect of over penetration. Expanding into a larger diameter and creating more damage is just a side additional benefit. But in order to ensure that a bullet would expand as designed, you had to increased the velocity of the bullet. The easiest way to do this, is to load the ammo with the exact same amount of powder, and simply reduce the weight of the bullet. That will automatically increase the velocity. So a 125 grain hollow point is definitely better than the 158 LRN, WC, SWC, etc... Assuming you are foolish to shoot when there's a crowd of innocents standing behind your target. However, with today's ammo, and the 158 grain bullet also made in hollow points, you are just as safe shooting the 158 grain hp as you are a 125 grain. And if you think the 158 grain still has an over penetration issue, then you really do need to go back and take some physics courses.

Oh FWIW: The Federal Hydra-Shok, which is considered a very respectable Self Defense handgun bullet, is WAS ONLY PRODUCED in the 158 grain HSJHP for the very longest time. It traveled at 1240 fps and 535 ft/lbs. Recently, they cam out with the 130 grain. But they did so specifically for a "Lighter" shooting bullet. Not because of penetration. Normally, the 130 would be a lot faster than a 158 grain. But the 130 grain only goes at 1300 fps. But it's also less kick and less flash for personal defense for those who need it like that. But the 158 grain HSJHP is their MAIN hydra-shok 357 magnum round. There's a reason for this.
 
NEVER NEVER NEVER shoot at anything you cannot see.

The guy that was screaming at your front door might have just become the police man banging on the door to see if the guy his partner is chasing down the hall right now just killed someone in your apartment.

NEVER NEVER NEVER shoot at anything you cannot see.
 
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