51cskipper
New member
Depends on what you're going to do with it...
357 or 45 Colt:
.357 Mag vs HOT .45 Colt
- Thread starter TruthTellers
- Start date
Depends on what you're going to do with it...
357 or 45 Colt:
)ballisticxlr
New member
I thought about this kind of thing and ended up selling my .357mag lever gun and my .45colt lever gun and my .44mag levergun and built a Mauser instead. My mauser is chambered to accept .45ACP from 1911 mags (troupsystems.com). Here's where I come out insanely far ahead of the old levergun stuff. I ordered a bunch of .460Rowland brass and cut it all down to the TTL for .45ACP. When so cut the case internal capacities are identical and the only difference is how strong the brass is. Now I can load HOT or not!
For just screwing around I can shoot standard .45acp loads in regular .45acp brass running 230's ~1000fps (remember, this is a rifle with a 16.5" barrel).
For a little more fun I can load to .45super levels in .45acp brass or .460rowland brass and see 230's running ~1300fps. Now you've got real .44mag power levels in a .45acp case. Primer pockets last several firings on .45acp brass and forever on .460 brass.
For a little more power I can load to full .460rowland levels and see 1600-1700fps with 230's.
If I want to get plum nasty about it though, I can load what ends up a nugget of Longshot powder under pretty severe compression with a rifle primer and see over 2000fps with a .230gr. I'm doing this in a Swedish M38 Mauser action that wears a Williams peep rear sight and a fairly tall front sight taken from an old black powder revolver.
Running FMJ bullets I can push one through just about anything. Fuggs up mammals bad. Even FMJ expands at those velocities.
To give some idea of the load, max charge of longshot with a 230 is listed as 12gr. I'm north of that by more than 20% before 2000fps.
For just screwing around I can shoot standard .45acp loads in regular .45acp brass running 230's ~1000fps (remember, this is a rifle with a 16.5" barrel).
For a little more fun I can load to .45super levels in .45acp brass or .460rowland brass and see 230's running ~1300fps. Now you've got real .44mag power levels in a .45acp case. Primer pockets last several firings on .45acp brass and forever on .460 brass.
For a little more power I can load to full .460rowland levels and see 1600-1700fps with 230's.
If I want to get plum nasty about it though, I can load what ends up a nugget of Longshot powder under pretty severe compression with a rifle primer and see over 2000fps with a .230gr. I'm doing this in a Swedish M38 Mauser action that wears a Williams peep rear sight and a fairly tall front sight taken from an old black powder revolver.
Running FMJ bullets I can push one through just about anything. Fuggs up mammals bad. Even FMJ expands at those velocities.
To give some idea of the load, max charge of longshot with a 230 is listed as 12gr. I'm north of that by more than 20% before 2000fps.
jetinteriorguy
New member
This sounds so crazy, fun that is. Checked out the website, surprised me how affordable it is.
I say just get both! That's what I did and couldn't be happier with my choice.
I would start out with the easier option of what ever rifle comes up first for sale at a good price. I started off with a Rossi 45 rifle and then bought a older Interarms Puma 357. Then sold the Rossi to a friend and bought a Marlin 45 rifle with a longer barrel.
Both rifles are fun to shoot and really come alive with hand loads, I have revolvers in both 357 & 45C so additional side arms in those calibers were gonna happen anyway.
I would start out with the easier option of what ever rifle comes up first for sale at a good price. I started off with a Rossi 45 rifle and then bought a older Interarms Puma 357. Then sold the Rossi to a friend and bought a Marlin 45 rifle with a longer barrel.
Both rifles are fun to shoot and really come alive with hand loads, I have revolvers in both 357 & 45C so additional side arms in those calibers were gonna happen anyway.
ammo.crafter
New member
45Colt
Great medicine for hogs in the woods.
Great medicine for hogs in the woods.
stinkeypete
New member
I've owned all three (sort of and more) and here is my conclusion:
Rossi .454 Casul. It was a nice enough little carbine but full up .454 Casul loads, especially without a full tube of heavy ammo, the light little thing made me see stars, smell blood in my sinuses and bucked the lever half open, jamming my hand with the recoil. I immediately loaded down to .45 Colt Ruger level loads. Yes, it could take a velociraptor but your shoulder will be black and blue. For all practical purposes, .45 LC Ruger Only loads are enough.
Then my dad passed his Heny style reproduction in .44 Magnum on to me. Long octagon barrel and no forend. I asked "why .44 Magnum when .45 LC has such a long history" and he replied that in his mind .44 Magnum is just a short way of saying ".44-40 Ruger only". That stuck with me.
.357 Magnum Marlin- just never ran that smoothly for me, especially not with .38 special factory ammo. If I wanted to hunt deer, I would go bigger and just too big to really blast bunnies with. Then again, I live up north and 200 pound white tails (undressed) are not uncommon up here.
In my gun collecting downsizing the one I would have back is a nice Marlin 30-30 lever action. They are everywhere, no snob appeal at all. Sure I would love a .327 Fed Mag or .32-20 but.. really.. 30-30 does it all for a hand loader.
One of my favorite loads is 3 grains of bullseye and a little pinch of poly whisps (from batting material) under the 100 grain "plinker" half-jacket bullet. Simply a hoot to shoot, it's like your 30-30 is a .22. Squirrels and bunnies beware!
Of course .30-30 can load up and is an outstanding deer rifle. I haven't tried the Hornady Lever Evolution bullets but clearly they are ballistically superior to reach out to that 200 yard distance. There is a .30 cal bullet from 100 to 200 grains and .30-30 is the one I would have back out of all of them.
(as it is, I picked my granddad's mauser action 30-06 as my one high powered rifle as it shoots those same .30 grain plinkers and does everything up to T-rex)
Rossi .454 Casul. It was a nice enough little carbine but full up .454 Casul loads, especially without a full tube of heavy ammo, the light little thing made me see stars, smell blood in my sinuses and bucked the lever half open, jamming my hand with the recoil. I immediately loaded down to .45 Colt Ruger level loads. Yes, it could take a velociraptor but your shoulder will be black and blue. For all practical purposes, .45 LC Ruger Only loads are enough.
Then my dad passed his Heny style reproduction in .44 Magnum on to me. Long octagon barrel and no forend. I asked "why .44 Magnum when .45 LC has such a long history" and he replied that in his mind .44 Magnum is just a short way of saying ".44-40 Ruger only". That stuck with me.
.357 Magnum Marlin- just never ran that smoothly for me, especially not with .38 special factory ammo. If I wanted to hunt deer, I would go bigger and just too big to really blast bunnies with. Then again, I live up north and 200 pound white tails (undressed) are not uncommon up here.
In my gun collecting downsizing the one I would have back is a nice Marlin 30-30 lever action. They are everywhere, no snob appeal at all. Sure I would love a .327 Fed Mag or .32-20 but.. really.. 30-30 does it all for a hand loader.
One of my favorite loads is 3 grains of bullseye and a little pinch of poly whisps (from batting material) under the 100 grain "plinker" half-jacket bullet. Simply a hoot to shoot, it's like your 30-30 is a .22. Squirrels and bunnies beware!
Of course .30-30 can load up and is an outstanding deer rifle. I haven't tried the Hornady Lever Evolution bullets but clearly they are ballistically superior to reach out to that 200 yard distance. There is a .30 cal bullet from 100 to 200 grains and .30-30 is the one I would have back out of all of them.
(as it is, I picked my granddad's mauser action 30-06 as my one high powered rifle as it shoots those same .30 grain plinkers and does everything up to T-rex)
Pathfinder45
New member
I'm a 45 Colt guy, so I'll just say it and get that out of the way so that we can all know I am at least a little bit biased, so take the rest with a grain or two, or spoonful, of salt...
So, then, a 357 magnum in a lever-gun never quite equals a 30-30 Winchester, but with excellent handloads, it can come close enough, especially if you want to believe it; I think I want one.... It's chief advantage is magazine capacity.
Now in a revolver, the 357 magnum has never equaled the 45 Colt, but, with some trade-offs, it has bettered it in some ways, while falling short in other ways: The 357 shoots faster, and thus, flatter. Forget about foot-pounds of energy, unless you simply want to be deceived and care nothing about real facts. A farrier primarily uses two hammers the most: One to shape the shoes, and the other to drive the nails. Neither one will do the other's job very well.... Whether you shoot a 357 Magnum or a 45 Colt without hearing protection, both will destroy your hearing, neither will waste much time about it, but the 357 will waste no time about it. Honestly, the chief advantage of the 357 is that the ammo weighs half as much for the same amount of ammo, (or you can carry twice as much), which matters if you are back-packing in for a lotta miles. Again, I think I want one.
So, then, a 357 magnum in a lever-gun never quite equals a 30-30 Winchester, but with excellent handloads, it can come close enough, especially if you want to believe it; I think I want one.... It's chief advantage is magazine capacity.
Now in a revolver, the 357 magnum has never equaled the 45 Colt, but, with some trade-offs, it has bettered it in some ways, while falling short in other ways: The 357 shoots faster, and thus, flatter. Forget about foot-pounds of energy, unless you simply want to be deceived and care nothing about real facts. A farrier primarily uses two hammers the most: One to shape the shoes, and the other to drive the nails. Neither one will do the other's job very well.... Whether you shoot a 357 Magnum or a 45 Colt without hearing protection, both will destroy your hearing, neither will waste much time about it, but the 357 will waste no time about it. Honestly, the chief advantage of the 357 is that the ammo weighs half as much for the same amount of ammo, (or you can carry twice as much), which matters if you are back-packing in for a lotta miles. Again, I think I want one.
The 45 Colt, and the 44 Magnum, for that matter, can both easily exceed the power of the 30-30 Winchester, at the muzzle, at 50 yards, and perhaps even to 100 yards, or so. At some point after that, the 30-30 will have a flatter trajectory and retain more energy. But at close range, a hot 45 Colt can be more like a 30-'06 than a 30-30. Shoot some steel gongs and you'll see for yourself. The 357 is simply outclassed here.
I have Henry’s in 357, 44 mag and 45 colt. All of them at this point shooting my own hard cast bullets. About 12 grains of Unique under a good 45 colt bullet has done anything I’ve ever wanted. Star line brass is all I’ve used in the 44 and the 45. My brass after 10-15 loading is holding up well. The 44 brass after 10 or so I toss due to loose primer pockets. Haven’t had that issue with the 45 but the 44 is gas checked and a tad faster. I like all 3 but my favorite is the 45 colt.
CAUTION: The following post includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information. (In fact, the loads here are being given as bad examples, not recommendations)
12 grains of Herco is a powerful load. I calculated the pressure in Quickload years ago but I don't remember what it was. (27kpsi?) 12 grains of Unique would be much higher; I wouldn't go there. (and I've gone up to 16.5 grains with Blue Dot) ((you don't want to know how high I've gone with Bullseye in 9mm))
I've gotten a lot more conservative with my reloading; mostly sticking with powder manufacturer recommendations, sometimes just a little beyond with .38 Special and .45 Colt. Magnum-ized loads aren't as much fun as they used to be, and they've bound to be more stress on the gun -- like my poor BHP that I was feeding those Bullseye SMG loads for a while.
12 grains of Herco is a powerful load. I calculated the pressure in Quickload years ago but I don't remember what it was. (27kpsi?) 12 grains of Unique would be much higher; I wouldn't go there. (and I've gone up to 16.5 grains with Blue Dot) ((you don't want to know how high I've gone with Bullseye in 9mm))
I've gotten a lot more conservative with my reloading; mostly sticking with powder manufacturer recommendations, sometimes just a little beyond with .38 Special and .45 Colt. Magnum-ized loads aren't as much fun as they used to be, and they've bound to be more stress on the gun -- like my poor BHP that I was feeding those Bullseye SMG loads for a while.
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drive_sideways
New member
Buffalo Bores offerings seem to be in the 1800-1900 FPS range out of a 20” barrel. I’m sure how that would translate to a 16” but I couldn’t see it being much slower, if at all.
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TruthTellers
New member
For .357 or .45 Colt? I doubt with either I'd hit that velocity with either out of a 16 inch and from a 16 there'd be about 100-150 fps lost vs a 20.
drive_sideways
New member
Considering the powder type used in pistol cartridges is designed to burn up quick to achieve higher velocities within a much shorter barrel, I dug around a ballistics website and 45 LC saw only a 10 FPS difference 16-20” barrels. A 24” barrel 45 LC was slower then both.
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Pathfinder45
New member
There's a big difference between Red Dot, for example, and IMR-4227. With slow burning powders, there is more to gain with a longer barrel.
TruthTellers
New member
I mean, my intention is to use my reloads, which will mostly be using Unique, H110, and Lil' Gun. I believe those are all slow to medium burning powders and gain velocity well with barrel length.