357 fits in a j frame 38 Spl +P

I have to agree. occams razor dictates that it would most likely be a simple part substitution error. a cylinder bored for .357 put in the wrong parts bin.

once you go beyond a simple parts error, man, they get so complicated.

Unless I'm mistaken, they will use the same cylinder blanks for both cartridges in identical frames, just reaming the throats a little deeper. That is a standard practice in engineering due to our fascination with interchangeable parts and simplified processes.
 
If that's true, they gave you a .357 that was accidentally marked .38 + P .
If they are saying that you CANNOT close the cylinder with .357 ammunition in it, then it's not a .38.
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This is not even close to correct. Just because you can chamber a round doesn't mean the gun should ever touch that round off.

S&W doesn't make ANY aluminum framed .357 revolvers. All those lightweight .357s have the Scandium/Aluminum alloy, and there's a reason- the frame can't handle it.

Furthermore, I am under the impression that the heat treatment of the cylinder also matters- the .357 cylinders go through a different process.* There's no way of knowing if this cylinder is properly heat treated, and therefore strong enough.

It's quite possible that shooting a .357 in it would grenade the thing on the spot, and definite that you'd at the very least stretch the frame and ruin the gun in short order.

* I could be incorrect on this point; I can't point to any particular support other than "this one thing I read one time."
 
Yell at whom?
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Well, I was joking of course. Probably, no one will get yelled at. It's an interesting thing to ponder though. Up until the safety lock folks bought S&W they were a certified ISO 9000 company. Probably still are. Which means that they can roll back the documentation and tell exactly who was doing what and signed off on this gun when it was manufactured.

They can probably also use that documentation to determine which other guns may have a problem if they discover this one isn't kosher, and also be able to determine at which point in the process another procedure should be inserted (and what it should be) to make sure it doesn't happen again.

They don't make these things willy nilly. There is documentation at every level.
 
DUMB QUESTION--

What is a 'snap cap'?? I thought of the plastic thinggies for dry firing. The original poster didnt mention them but #3 or #4 guy did. What do they have to do with anything.

PS I did not read 4 pages of posts..probably obvious.
 
i dont own any 38spl revolvers. i buy .357s always to simply because i always want the stronger manufacture.

i was under the impresson that the .357mag cylinder was physically LONGER than a 38spl cyl?:confused:


what is a snap cap
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most people refer to a-zooms its just a aluminum cartridge with a polyurithan primer. used for dry firing. also seen plastic ones. google " A-Zoom "
 
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i was under the impresson that the .357mag cylinder was physically LONGER than a 38spl cyl?
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Many of the current production models are being built on the larger/longer frames (where necessary), and/or using full length cylinders. Materials are cheap. Labor and machine time are expensive. It's cheaper for them to make 5,000 ".357 Magnums", with 2,500 only being reamed and stamped for .38 Spcl, than it is to actually build the .38s with unique parts.
 
If I understand it correctly, the .38 cylinders for the new, longer-framed revolvers actually are set up to headspace effectively on the shoulder, as well as the rim, to prevent .357 cartridges from being able to fully seat.
 
If I understand it correctly, the .38 cylinders for the new, longer-framed revolvers actually are set up to headspace effectively on the shoulder, as well as the rim, to prevent .357 cartridges from being able to fully seat.
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This is true. In truth, though, it's not technically considered headspacing. I'm not sure what it would really be called, but it's actually there specifically to prevent loading of longer brass.

I really was so surprised when I handled an ancient .38 special and noticed that the chambers were straight bore. You could have fit a .357 into it and fired it.
 
HuntAndFish said:
Quote:
Yell at whom?
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Well, I was joking of course. Probably, no one will get yelled at.
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OK, at S&W, probably not yelling. However, in the military, the chewing out would have been termed "counselling", of which I have had my share:), and it often FELT:eek: like yelling:mad: as I stood in a brace.

But times do change.

Lost Sheep
 
This got me curious. I have a Ruger SP101 357 and a Rugar LCR 38 Special.

I compared these and found the cylinders to be the same length.

However, the other dimensions, except bore rim, were much different; a 357 won’t go all the way into the LCR. The LCR cylinder diameter is less and the firing pin circle is less. The metal walls are less in the LCR.

Which causes me to wonder:
What is the 357 LCR like? I haven’t tried one yet, have been thinking of upgrading.

Yes, I know this does not apply to the S&W mentioned here, but the 357/38special thing got me to wondering.
 
But do you value your left hand??? :)


.38 spc
Case type Rimmed, straight
Bullet diameter .357 in (9.1 mm)
Neck diameter .379 in (9.6 mm)
Base diameter .379 in (9.6 mm)
Rim diameter .44 in (11 mm)
Rim thickness .058 in (1.5 mm)
Case length 1.155 in (29.3 mm)
Overall length 1.55 in (39 mm)


.357 mag
Case type Rimmed, straight
Bullet diameter .357 in (9.1 mm)
Neck diameter .379 in (9.6 mm)
Base diameter .379 in (9.6 mm)
Rim diameter .440 in (11.2 mm)
Rim thickness .060 in (1.5 mm)
Case length 1.29 in (33 mm)
Overall length 1.59 in (40 mm)
 
Why they SHOULD not fit

Thanks, RamItOne, for posting the dimensions.

To answer ClayInTx's and briandg's curiosity, I have selected (boldface and underlines)the significant dimensions on which to focus.


The chamber for 38 Spec can be viewed as if it is bored through at throat diameter (for the bullet, which is .357") and then reamed a little larger in diameter to accomodate the brass' outside diameter (which is .379"). The depth of that reaming is just 1.155". Just deep enough that a 38 Special case will fit, but not deep enough for the longer magnum case to go in all the way.

The chamber of the magnum can be viewed as if it is bored through at throat diameter (exactly the dimensions of the 38 Special boring in every way), but then reamed a little larger in diameter to accomodate the brass' outside diameter (which is also .379", just like the 38 Special). But the reaming is deeper than 1.155". It is 1.290" deep.

When the .357 magnum cartridge is inserted into the .38 Special chamber, the extra .135" of .379 diameter brass case jams up against the "shoulder" in the chamber that you will find 1.155" deep in the chamber.

When a Special is inserted into a Magnum chamber, that extra 0.135" presents no problems for chambering and firing. It may allow the bullet to "tip" while it traverses that slightly larger diameter portion of the chamber, contributing to accuracy problems, or may allow accumulation of powder fouling, though. But that is another thread.

.38 spc
Case type Rimmed, straight
Bullet diameter .357 in (9.1 mm)
Neck diameter .379 in (9.6 mm)
Base diameter .379 in (9.6 mm)
Rim diameter .44 in (11 mm)
Rim thickness .058 in (1.5 mm)
Case length 1.155 in (29.3 mm)
Overall length 1.55 in (39 mm)


.357 mag
Case type Rimmed, straight
Bullet diameter .357 in (9.1 mm)
Neck diameter .379 in (9.6 mm)
Base diameter .379 in (9.6 mm)
Rim diameter .440 in (11.2 mm)
Rim thickness .060 in (1.5 mm)
Case length 1.290 in (33 mm)
Overall length 1.59 in (40 mm)
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Clear as mud?

Lost Sheep
 
Ah! The internet!

Unbelieveable. The guy has said...distinctly...four times that the chambers will accept .357 ammunition and that the cylinder will close...and there are still demands for proof. If he showed a headstamped case fully seated, I suppose there would be somebody to accuse him of trimming a .357 case to .38 Special length.

At not time did he mention snap caps. He distinctly said "ammunition".

It's simple, really.

Somebody at Smith & Wesson made a mistake and cut the chamber shoulders to .357 length, pure and simple. It can happen. I imagine that Smith would like very much to have this gun back so they can correct it. Give'em time to respond.

If you elect not to send it back, don't fire .357 ammunition in the gun unless you handload it to .38 Special levels. If you ever sell or trade the gun, be sure to notify the new owner of the situation with all due caveats...in writing.
 
Many of the current production models are being built on the larger/longer frames (where necessary), and/or using full length cylinders. Materials are cheap. Labor and machine time are expensive. It's cheaper for them to make 5,000 ".357 Magnums", with 2,500 only being reamed and stamped for .38 Spcl, than it is to actually build the .38s with unique parts.
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that makes complete sense of course, like i said i only have .357s..
 
Nothing yet to update

Gents, the gun is at S&W and I'm in Singapore! No word (email) from S&W and I do thank RamitOne for his post on the dimensions of the 38 Special and 357 as well as Lost Sheep for his explanation.

Had my LGS send it in for me as I'll be here for another week or so. That way S&W can send it back to my LGS. I'm just as curious what they have to say.

BTW - told my LGS guy about being able to load the 357 into the 38 SPL and he said - "You can't do that" Oh yeah? Just watch.

1911Tuner - I had to edit my orginal post as I put in too much extraeous information about how I discovered the Problem. Initially loaded some 357 lenght snap caps then real live rounds.
 
Not any more!

Sorry that it has taken so long to get back to this forum for an update but it was not my fault! Really.

The 638 got to S&W on the 14th of Feb and they had it repaired by the 17th. When they sent it back to my LGS, S&W sent it with just my name and did not include the name of the LGS. Suffice to say that the gun went back to S&W. I finally got back to the US at the end of Feb. and called S&W last week. "Oh, yeah we got it back where do you want us to send it?" Asked why they did not email me as in the documentation that I put in with the gun requested that they do so. Answer - We don't have time to email everyone due to the amount of work going on.

Well, in any event the 638 made it back to me today. Only thing on the work order stated - Replaced the cylinder.

You can believe that I checked each of the bores in the cylinder with a 357 round. NO GO! So it's fixed.

Got the Wolf spring kit in on Monday and after checking out the cylinder, did a quick polish of the internals and put the 8 lb. main spring and 13 lb return spring in. Way big difference in the perceived pull weight (I don't have a trigger gauge). The trigger return is also much smoother now. Will be testing the gun tomorrow with various ammo to ensure reliability.

Thanks to all here.
 
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