.32 Defensive ammo (and a question about .38+P)

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Lord Evan's #'s show the .32 Silvertips at 63% oss.
Best 9mm= 115 FMJ @ 63%.
Best .45= 230 FMJ (what was that line? "They all fall to hard ball"?) @ 65%.
By this data (let's not go off on THAT issue again!) the modern .32 loading are underpowered & only as effective as the ammo issued to the military for sidearms.
 
Let's not get carried away with the idea that sub 9mm caliber pistols are totally useless. I knew an army officer who having lost his carbine and >45 automatic in combat killed three enemy soldiers with six shots from his .25ACP Colt automatic.
 
PlusP - the .32 is a BACKUP, not a primary. I'd much rather be carrying a .32 and my .45 than just my .45. For that purpose it's ideal in the new tiny configs anyway.

I'm also wondering why one would eject the mag and chambered round before throwing the pistol. :confused: It would be heavier with the mag in.
 
You only eject the mag and chambered round if you are afraid of being shot with your own little spitwad. I am, but I'll hang on to mine until the battle is over. Shooters who fear mouseguns probably got sliced by a slide in the web. I prefer 40,9,38,380 in that order, but I enjoy carrying and using both 32 and 22 as well.
Placement is everything. For more insight on the 32, two prominent persons would be President McKinley and Archduke Ferdinand, both of whom were assasinated by the little spitwad.



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Teach a non-shooter to shoot. Educate a voter.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>pluspinc:
I find .32 and "defensive ammo" to be almost an oxymoron. No matter what the package is, it is still a .32. Seems strange this has become a hot item with shooters when it was considered a pimp gun for so long and not taken seriously. Amazing what marketing and gun writers can do. Sorry, to many years on the street just doesn't give me much confidence in such things.
[/quote]

This is one of the more fatuous pronouncements yet uttered here.

"Pimp gun" and "marketing and gun writers?"

Need I point out that the .32 ACP in the form of the Model 1903 Colt Pocket Hammerless was a general officers' issue during WW II?

And as for your "oxymoron," a skilled man with a .32 anything would be a formidible adversary… otherwise where'd all those ER .32 GSWs come from?

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- Peter Collinson

[This message has been edited by Peter Collinson (edited February 12, 2000).]
 
I don't know why people feel the need to slam "mouse" gun calibers. In the rest of the world a .32 or .380 is an acceptable defensive caliber. Until fairly recent history in the US a .32 was considered an adequate defensive round. I find this unfornuate because many newbies feel the need to go purchase a .40, .357 or a .45 and then get turned off by the recoil or not being able to hit the target(I know this first hand,I did it 10 years ago with a .357). If we spent more time in the U.S. practicing instead of talking ballistics maybe more BGs would find their ultimate reward.

Now I admit I feel more comfortable when I have my .40 Sig 226 or 229 on my hip, but that isn't always possible. I would rather have my "mouse gun" in my pocket than no gun.



[This message has been edited by mrat (edited February 12, 2000).]
 
Around 1900 NYPD used the .32 S&W with few complaints but the critics claimed the .38 S&W was needed and it was adopted. That didn't work so they needed the .38 Special of course then that wasn't enough...........
When the .357 came along there was enough power but not enough bullets.
The older Colt was indeed in .32, but you will find most preferred the .380 that it came in also.
I curious if anyone is in trouble if they will wish for a SMALLER gun?

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Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
 
You guys should know by now that PLUSPINC is the second masiah and will always have the last post no matter what you say. So give up this thread it is getting boaring ! He will have an answer for me watch.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lucky085:
I talked to an employee of a gunshop who said they did tests of the Keltec P32 using various ammo. Winchester ST's could not penetrate a leather jacket, but the hotter Fiochhi could. Of course, if you're going for face shots, it doesn't matter, otherwise I would think shooting penetrating loads in winter and WIN st's in summer would be best.

I believe there are a couple of other hot loads out there also(MAgsafe or whatever).[/quote]


You should really, REALLY think about questioning your friend's statements. I have personally run some tests on .32 ACP, and found that plain-ol' Remington ball .32 acp out of P-32 will zip right on through both the shoulders of a recently-shot small doe and bury itself 'way deep into hardpan S. Texas soil. 2nd shot penetrated through and through the skull and likewise buried deep into same hardpack soil. (Hey, this was all in the name of science, okay? The deer had been dead for about 5 minutes, max. [by a .30-06 to the spine])

While I know that ball ammo penetrates better than Silvertip, there is NO WAY that Silvertip won't at least penetrate a stinkin' leather coat! Hey, I got penetration of two "leather coats", and two shoulders, with a bullet of about the same weight, flying about the same velocity.

Now, if you were to tell me that your buddy wrapped a 12" block of ballistic test gel in a leather coat and found that the bullet didn't exit the back side of the leather coat, I'd buy that, in a heartbeat. Mayhaps you mis-understood him, or he misstated himself??

The .32 acp is woefully under-powered, but it's available in some delightfully tiny guns that were heretofore only available in .22 and .25 acp, the two of which are completely inferior to the .32. Better to have a tool than not, when met with a problem. The tiny .32s allow you to always have a tool on you.

M.G.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peter Collinson:
This is one of the more fatuous pronouncements yet uttered here.

"Pimp gun" and "marketing and gun writers?"

Need I point out that the .32 ACP in the form of the Model 1903 Colt Pocket Hammerless was a general officers' issue during WW II?

And as for your "oxymoron," a skilled man with a .32 anything would be a formidible adversary… otherwise where'd all those ER .32 GSWs come from?
[/quote]


Peter, this really wasn't as mean a statement as it looks from Pluspinc: Oxymoron simply means self-contradiction. Pluspinc is just stating what a lot of people, maybe me included, have said for years: .32acp aimply isn't up to snuff as used as a defensive round. Certainly one would never plan to go to a gunfight with the mighty romp-em-stomp-em .32 acp! ;)

However, and I know that Pluspinc will agree, if you were planning on having a gunfight, you wouldn't even bother messing with a handgun; you'd use a shotgun or HP rifle. The handgun is by necessity a purely defensive arm, and even the .45 acp is "inadequate" as a sure-stopper. However, it's one of the best stoppers in a package that I'm willing to tote around with me all day, seeing as how I have no intention of ever even witnessing a gunfight, more less participating in one. Still... I'd rather have something than nothing. :)

And, to be sure, for quite a while, like it or not, .32 did have a reputation as being a favorite "pimp gun". It was often found in small, garish little cheap pistols. Times have changed.

You're right about the '03 Colt Pocket pistol, and I've carried one a bit (in .380, though); they're very nice pistols. But just because officers carried them in WWII doesn't mean that it was at all adequate as a main-battery sidearm. The pistol was serving the same purpose as a sabre; it identified an officer. It was more of a symbol than an arm. Officers in Japan were carrying Baby Nambus (Not general issue, but they were allowed to wear them as uniform.), which is just as anemic if not worse. The pistol was a symbol for them, too and they wanted the lightest, most portable, least-restrictive thing they could hang off their Sam Brownes.

Of all the posts to blow up at Pluspinc over, this one wasn't really the one! :D

Let's thicken our skins a bit, gentlemen and women. After all, according to lucky085's buddy's testing, it could save us from injury by the mouselike .32 acp! :D :D ;)

[grinning and tongue in cheek,]

L.P.
 
I've gotta jump in here on this one. I'd say it was a tie between Longpath and Lucky085 for the most outrageous claim. My reasoning follows - nobodys gullible enough (sorry Lucky085) to believe a .32 won't penetrate through a leather jacket. On the other end of the extreme believing a .32 will penetrate through both shoulders of a deer and "imbed deep in hardpan S. Texas soil", I can only say HARHARHARHAHAHAHAHA...STOP IT...YOUR KILLIN' ME!!! Let me tell you why that one is so funny. My dad hit a buck deer in his car and broke the deers back. He drove to the nearest house and called the state patrol to come out and put it out of its misery, as he had no way to kill it. When the officer showed up he put 6 rounds, out of the .38 he pulled out of his holster, into the deer at point blank range before he killed it. Four of the shots were in the neck 2"-6" behind the head. After the fourth shot hadn't killed it, Dad suggested shooting it in the head. The first shot in the head knocked it dopey and the second shot killed it. My dad asked the cop if he could have the buck as it wasn't busted up very bad. To make a long story short when we skinned out the buck the deepest bullet penetrated in the neck stopped at the vertebrate causing no bone damage. The others penetrated less than that. Granted the bucks neck was swollen by the rut, but the damage caused by the .38 police special was "piss poor" performance. Regarding the two shots to the head, the first bullet cracked the skull and was stuck in the skull plate, the second went into the brain, not exiting out the other side. When dad and I saw that the shots in the neck had made so little damage we were curious so thats why we skinned it out to see why the first shot in the head hadn't killed it. All I can say is that doe you shot with your .32 must of been either a 15 lb. fawn or else if it was full grown, you must of had your .32 loaded with one of George's 230 gr. Federal Hydra Shocks. In summary, I vote we move this thread to the humor forum. HAR HAR HAR HAR........ :D
 
After all the banter on the superiority of lager calibers than the .32 in this thread(as if I didnt know all this) I am still no closer to having any reasonable suggestions for ammo to carry in this gun and the reasons why x type of bullet would serve better than another.

You can call it a mouse gun, a pimp gun, a throwable piece of metal or what ever you want, but if its all I can reasonable conceal and carry with me in the level of activity I enguage in.

I DO have a .357 Taurus revolver with a 2 1/4" ported barrel and a concealed hammer, that I would love to be able to carry all the time, but I cant.

I guess for now I'll carry the FMJ in my .32 until I find good reason to put something else in it.

One question that lingers in my mind is, why do law enforcement officers often carry Seecamps or Gaurdians for backup if they are so worthless? Why not just forget about a backup pistol?

I guess they need something handy to throw at the BG's. ;)
 
Brian, you hit it on the head! When they throw those night sticks they arc too much - their backup guns are "flatter throwing". Just my opinion - I could be wrong. Sorry I couldn't actually answer your question, but never owned a .32 cal. If it was me, I would pick up a roadkill deer one day, take it home and try out a variety of loads to see which one has the better penetration. Look at the bright side - you won't have to dig very far to retrieve the bullets. ;)
 
To date, I have only used FN hardball (less than 100$/1000, delivered) in my P-32. I view penetration as the key element in calibers this marginal.

As far as what a small, anemic pistol round can penetrate, I fired a .380 round from another small George Kelgren product (Grendell P-10) that penetrated all the way through an abandoned refrigerator lengthwise...and kept on going...Penetration and killing power are not to be confused with each other. I am aware of situations where a .32 would have been more deadly on game than the super-high-velocity rifle round that was used at short range, as the "wunder round" was going so fast it practically exploded on the skin. A .32 FMJ round would have penetrated enough to do a little more damage.

A single anecdote means nothing, while a large selection of reports from reliable sources is considerably more valid.
 
From today's Kel-Tec Owner's Group digest...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...over the years I have made
a non-scientific study of stopping power on deer that had to be put down after being hit by a car. The .357 magnum 125gr and the .45acp 185 gr seemed to drop them instantly, and it took maybe a second or two more for a 9mm 115 gr std velocity; when I used Cor-bon 115gr, they dropped as fast as if a .357
or .45 was used. When I have used the .32acp silvertips, it seems to take between 5 and 10 seconds for the deer to drop. All shots were to the back of the head from 3 to 4 yards away.[/quote]
 
One question that lingers in my mind is, why do law enforcement officers often carry Seecamps or Gaurdians for backup if they are so worthless? Why not just forget about a backup pistol?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
FADS! I recall the day everyone I knew carried a 1911a1 for a backup. Then it was the stainless Model 60. Each dept and even nationwide fads come and go. Ask any cop how many holsters and thingamahjigs they have in that big box we all have when we bought things we didn't think we could live without including stun guns etc.
Seecamps found favor as a fashion statement because of the extreme price (thus quality) not because the .32 ACP was so effective.
If you doubt how this works ask anyone about the sales of the S&W Model 29 after Dirty Harry used one. That is how it works.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lucky085:
I talked to an employee of a gunshop who said they did tests of the Keltec P32 using various ammo. Winchester ST's could not penetrate a leather jacket, but the hotter Fiochhi could.[/quote]

Ok, here's what you do. Go back to that gunshop, find that employee, ask him to
put on a leather coat and meet you out back.

Meanwhile, load up a Keltec P32 with Winchester Silvertip...

I bet he refuses... Winchester Silvertip not penetrating a leather coat? Ha! Horse exhaust!
 
I was quite surprised to see how far .32 ball and Silvertips penetrated. FN ball, OTOH, is anemic. .410 slugs penetrated less than .32 ball (doesn't mean I prefer .32, but does mean that .410 has softer slug and greater cross-section so its extra velocity is nulified, on hard targets at least)
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Long Path:
Oxymoron simply means self-contradiction.
[/quote]

I am quite familiar with the combination of incongruous, if not mutually exclusive, terms, but thank you for the confirmation.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Pluspinc is just stating what a lot of people, maybe me included, have said for years: .32acp aimply isn't up to snuff as used as a defensive round.
[/quote]

It's a small caliber handgun round, that's all. It kills alot of people and has stopped alot of fights over the years.

For decades it was the issue caliber of German and French police, among others. As a Personal Defense Weapon, I chose something else, but if a Colt's 1903 or a Walther PP was all I had as a sidearm, I wouldn't be too concerned. It's the man, not the tool, remember? Or have we been lying to the anti-gunners all these years? Hmmmm?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
…if you were planning on having a gunfight, you wouldn't even bother messing with a handgun; you'd use a shotgun or HP rifle.
[/quote]

Well, there's the rub, sir… I wouldn't be planning a gunfight. Given the opportunity to "plan" anything of that sort, I'd call in those who are paid to perform in those situations.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
And, to be sure, for quite a while, like it or not, .32 did have a reputation as being a favorite "pimp gun". It was often found in small, garish little cheap pistols.
[/quote]

O, yes, of course… the "Saturday Night Specials" from the poured metals magnates of California. $38.95 retail.

I on the otherhand think of the Walters and Colt's and CZs, etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
…just because officers carried them in WWII doesn't mean that it was at all adequate as a main-battery sidearm.
[/quote]

I know more than one WW II veteran who made it through the ETO and Pacific with those Pocket Hammerless pistols, not as a priimary weapon, but a useful one none-the-less.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Of all the posts to blow up at Pluspinc over, this one wasn't really the one!
[/quote]

Why not… one's as good as another, and it was typical of his road apple pronouncements. I rarely see anyone really call him on it, 'though.

------------------
- Peter Collinson

[This message has been edited by Peter Collinson (edited February 13, 2000).]
 
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