chrisintexas
New member
KelTec P32
.32 acp SD ammo?
- Thread starter chrisintexas
- Start date
There is a SAAMI +p standard for those four cartridges. But only for those four. This does not mean there is nothing else in the world that can be accurately and honestly described as "+p".
"+p" is a general term. It covers EVERYTHING that is higher than standard pressure. Whether a little, or a lot. It is not a specific term with a specific pressure for anything except the SAAMI spec for those four specific rounds.
Which is what they are doing...
Which is your assumption. IF they were loading one of those four named rounds that HAVE a SAAMI +p rating, and their load wasn't the SAAMI rating, THEN they would be lying if they claimed it was SAAMI +p.
But if there isn't a SAAMI +p rating, and they are loading above industry standard pressure, then they are NOT LYING when they say their load is +p.
True. and Machts Nichts.
IF SAAMI doesn't have a ratting for something, that doesn't mean such a thing cannot exist. ALL it means is that SAAMI doesn't have a rating for it.
I am rather fond of Buffalo Bore's attitude. I don't use their ammo, I'm not promoting the company in any way. "no dog in that fight", but I do like their attitude, as it appears to me, from a distance..
They won't tell you what their ammo is loaded with. They won't tell you what the pressures are. They will tell you if its above standard pressure, (they'll tell you its "+p), but they won't tell you how much it is above standard pressure, and THEY DON"T HAVE TO!
They tell what the bullet is, and what speed they get, and that their ammo is SAFE, in the guns they tested it in. They tell you not to use their ammo in guns that they have not tested it in. What more do you need??
People who use their ammo say its good stuff. People who chronograph their ammo say that (allowing for variations due to individual guns) their velocity numbers are spot on.
As far as I can see, there is no lying, about anything, going on.
Onward Allusion
New member
For the P32...FMJ all the way. Even with FMJ, be careful not to drop the P32 with a loaded mag (or even the loaded mag by itself). It can rimlock to the point of having to disassemble the magazine to get the rounds out. This has happened to me TWICE. Thankfully, after the first time it happened, I knew to inspect the mag after the loaded gun got jostled or dropped.
stinkeypete
New member
I have been re-reading my copy of “the complete reloading manual” by Sharpe.
This book is sort of “state of the art, 1955” which from some perspectives is “obsolete” and from others “great information that’s been lost over time” and there is a good bit of “Basic Science of how things work has not changed since the Big Bang and the history of our sport is fascinating, funny, and informative.”
One thing that’s clear is that measuring chamber pressure precisely isn’t possible for reasons.
Modern instrumentation with strain gauges and digital computers is, if not more accurate, a lot easier to reproduce than big devices that crush a copper cup.
Even so, pressure from a cartridge is not a “number”, it’s a number over time. We might focus on “peak pressure” but peak pressure of what?
Our cartridges don’t live in a vacuum- they live in the chamber of a firearm. The precise dimensions and headspacing can dramatically impact the pressure curve. The pressure depends on the gun it’s shot in.
Some guns are much stronger than others due to dimensions, design, alloy, flaws, metal fatigue, maybe some other stuff.
It’s sort of a false premise to think that any ammunition will be perfectly safe when ignited in a gun barrel. We can only improve our odds.
Two stories: when I started shooting .45 bullseye my gunsmith had been an army armorer and competitor. He was a Grand Master class shooter at Camp Perry. He seemed genuinely surprised when I asked if he would give me lessons. He thought a moment.
“First of all, grab the gun hard. Real hard. So hard you can see the sights shaking, then ease back just a little. Work on your grip strength.”
Then he said
“Say to yourself ‘squeeze the crap out of it’ then say to yourself ‘it’s going full auto or it’s gonna blow up’, then drop the slide.”
Really?
“Yah, hang out at the range long enough, you’ll see it. I’ve seen wrecked guns and full auto but no one got their hand seriously messed up. Keep muzzle control. Remind yourself it still might blow up, grip hard, relax, take your shot.”
Relax, it might blow up?
“Yah. Supervise an army range all day for 15 years, you see it all.”
Then I was reading stuff by Paco Kelly about 30-30 loads only for strong modern marlin rifles. We don’t talk about those loads here, but they were hunting loads, never intended for every day day-after-day use, and with the full expectation they would damage a Winchester and certainly damage old collectibles. I’m still here with all my fingers, but I developed my own load very cautiously. What I learned is for my rifle, I could load to max published load with confidence and then learned my shoulder didn’t appreciate even that for plinking around.
What’s the point?
Buffalo Bore “+p” defense ammo is perhaps intended for the extremely rare personal defense situation. One might reckon that the danger from an attacker is 100.00% and the danger from the ammunition not doing it’s best job is greater than the danger of a catastrophic failure.
That stuff isn’t practice or plinking ammunition. Who knows what a steady diet of it will do.. but a handful isn’t like jamming dynamite in your barrel.
Play the odds and play safe for you, your gun, and it’s never safe.
This book is sort of “state of the art, 1955” which from some perspectives is “obsolete” and from others “great information that’s been lost over time” and there is a good bit of “Basic Science of how things work has not changed since the Big Bang and the history of our sport is fascinating, funny, and informative.”
One thing that’s clear is that measuring chamber pressure precisely isn’t possible for reasons.
Modern instrumentation with strain gauges and digital computers is, if not more accurate, a lot easier to reproduce than big devices that crush a copper cup.
Even so, pressure from a cartridge is not a “number”, it’s a number over time. We might focus on “peak pressure” but peak pressure of what?
Our cartridges don’t live in a vacuum- they live in the chamber of a firearm. The precise dimensions and headspacing can dramatically impact the pressure curve. The pressure depends on the gun it’s shot in.
Some guns are much stronger than others due to dimensions, design, alloy, flaws, metal fatigue, maybe some other stuff.
It’s sort of a false premise to think that any ammunition will be perfectly safe when ignited in a gun barrel. We can only improve our odds.
Two stories: when I started shooting .45 bullseye my gunsmith had been an army armorer and competitor. He was a Grand Master class shooter at Camp Perry. He seemed genuinely surprised when I asked if he would give me lessons. He thought a moment.
“First of all, grab the gun hard. Real hard. So hard you can see the sights shaking, then ease back just a little. Work on your grip strength.”
Then he said
“Say to yourself ‘squeeze the crap out of it’ then say to yourself ‘it’s going full auto or it’s gonna blow up’, then drop the slide.”
Really?
“Yah, hang out at the range long enough, you’ll see it. I’ve seen wrecked guns and full auto but no one got their hand seriously messed up. Keep muzzle control. Remind yourself it still might blow up, grip hard, relax, take your shot.”
Relax, it might blow up?
“Yah. Supervise an army range all day for 15 years, you see it all.”
Then I was reading stuff by Paco Kelly about 30-30 loads only for strong modern marlin rifles. We don’t talk about those loads here, but they were hunting loads, never intended for every day day-after-day use, and with the full expectation they would damage a Winchester and certainly damage old collectibles. I’m still here with all my fingers, but I developed my own load very cautiously. What I learned is for my rifle, I could load to max published load with confidence and then learned my shoulder didn’t appreciate even that for plinking around.
What’s the point?
Buffalo Bore “+p” defense ammo is perhaps intended for the extremely rare personal defense situation. One might reckon that the danger from an attacker is 100.00% and the danger from the ammunition not doing it’s best job is greater than the danger of a catastrophic failure.
That stuff isn’t practice or plinking ammunition. Who knows what a steady diet of it will do.. but a handful isn’t like jamming dynamite in your barrel.
Play the odds and play safe for you, your gun, and it’s never safe.
Last edited:
I just bought 10 boxes of these online because someone had them for $6.99 a box. Before buying I searched Geco ammo here and what little I found was very positive. They're sold out, btw.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3AjuJd4QC4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3AjuJd4QC4
Cheapshooter
New member
I just don't like the fact that the boutique ammo companies are using the +P as if there were actually a SAAMI +P 32acp standard. Simply for advertising hype. Why not "Hot Loads", "High Pressure Loads", or even "High Performance Loads"?
The way they use +P is with the intention that it is an actual industry classification, it's not.
My suspicion is that the ammo is not actually loaded to above standard SAAMI pressure, but rather loaded to the very edge. Where reputable, major ammo companies calculate in a bit of cushion in pressure levels to accommodate some variables that might increase chamber pressure. Hence lying when the call it +P.
Either way it's advertising hype ti sell someone that wish they would have bought a more gun. But by using this "special" ammunition that can make a powerful magnum out of anything by adding +P to the name.
The way they use +P is with the intention that it is an actual industry classification, it's not.
My suspicion is that the ammo is not actually loaded to above standard SAAMI pressure, but rather loaded to the very edge. Where reputable, major ammo companies calculate in a bit of cushion in pressure levels to accommodate some variables that might increase chamber pressure. Hence lying when the call it +P.
Either way it's advertising hype ti sell someone that wish they would have bought a more gun. But by using this "special" ammunition that can make a powerful magnum out of anything by adding +P to the name.
stinkeypete
New member
@Cheap,
If you are saying that people use inaccurate terminology to sell more product then I agree.
“Hotter than a two dollar pistol” is just going to confuse the young ‘uns.
If you are saying that people use inaccurate terminology to sell more product then I agree.
“Hotter than a two dollar pistol” is just going to confuse the young ‘uns.
I see where you're coming from, but I still disagree a bit with some of your points.
Previous generations did call their heavy loads "hi speed, hi vel, heavy duty" and other things. Today people just say +p, and mean the same thing. Not a specific pressure, just higher than standard.
I think you are assuming you know what other people will assume, and making a judgement based on that assumption.
You have suspicions, but you don't have proof. Stating you have suspicions is honest, and I respect that. But without proof, I think saying they are lying is rather harsh.
You think they are deliberately misleading us, to sell their product, I think they aren't, that they are simply describing their product factually, but without providing any further details, which allows all kinds of assumptions, which they have no legal requirement to dispel.
DO they have a moral responsibility to do so? I'd say that's arguable.
Cheapshooter
New member
You make my point about advertising hype perfectly. Those of us who actually know what SAAMI and +P are know it is either over accepted industry standard pressure, or just hyped up talk for absolute maximum loads.
Those that don't know what SAAMI and +P mean just buy into the hype that it is some kind of unworldly powerful super round.
All in all, and especially with a small, lower powered round like 32acp it's very doubtful that somebody shot with either will suffer any appreciably different injury, or know the difference in what ever round they were shot with.
since I learned that +P 38 special ammo barely reaches what real original 38 Special ammo was loaded to I take any ammo listed as +P with a large dose of salt. I suspect a lot of it is sizzle with no steak. And I have always heard European ammo was loaded hotter than American made ammo in 25, 32 380 and 9mm.
But its really no matter to me. I load all my own except 25acp and my loads are safe but hotter than off the shelf ammo for my defense loads.
But its really no matter to me. I load all my own except 25acp and my loads are safe but hotter than off the shelf ammo for my defense loads.
gbclarkson
New member
Gents and ladies,
I think the quest to define "+p", both quantitatively and linguistically, is beyond the scope of the OP's query and deserves its own thread.
My choice for .32 is S&B, 73gr, FMJ.
I think the quest to define "+p", both quantitatively and linguistically, is beyond the scope of the OP's query and deserves its own thread.
My choice for .32 is S&B, 73gr, FMJ.
Cheapshooter
New member
Above, and beyoun the +P, non +P, or +P hype there is the question of OAL with the BB hard cast flat nose bulket.
Just as with jhp, and the square pointed Xtreme Cavitator round, rim lock is a very real potential problem with anything but a fmj round in 32acp.
What ever round the OP decides on make sure it is 100% reliable in your firearm. That means several boxes not rounds of ammunition fired.
Just as with jhp, and the square pointed Xtreme Cavitator round, rim lock is a very real potential problem with anything but a fmj round in 32acp.
What ever round the OP decides on make sure it is 100% reliable in your firearm. That means several boxes not rounds of ammunition fired.
Here is a good article on loading the 32acp. I used some of this load data to load lead 95gr bullets for my Walther PP. See the caution about the Kel-Tec and Beretta Tomcat.
http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/32popguns.htm
If you are worried about rimlock you can help that. I did it but removing some of the rim diameter but chucking a loaded round in a drill and using a file to reduce the rim size. I did a couple of boxes like this and never had a misfire. I still have part of a box left. No matter how I loaded the gun with these modified rounds I could not get it to rimlock. I tried it with the PP and the Kel-Tec I used to own.
http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/32popguns.htm
If you are worried about rimlock you can help that. I did it but removing some of the rim diameter but chucking a loaded round in a drill and using a file to reduce the rim size. I did a couple of boxes like this and never had a misfire. I still have part of a box left. No matter how I loaded the gun with these modified rounds I could not get it to rimlock. I tried it with the PP and the Kel-Tec I used to own.
I completely agree that whatever you choose for SD ammo, FIRST it has to run 100% in your gun.
Since selling my old Savage, my only .32ACP is a WWII era Mauser HSc.
Never had any trouble with rimlock, with ball ammo, ball reloads, or Hornady 60gr jhp reloads.
Compared to more modern designs, the HSc is a brick. However, I don't find that an entirely bad thing. It's not the lightest possible thing to put in a pocket, but I prefer a gun with a bit of "heft". First, recoil is about nil, but more important (to me), is a .32acp, a round that doesn't have a stellar reputation for excess power, and I figure worst possible case, I want a gun with some steel in it, if I have to hit someone with it.
Now, if only I could find a magazine that both fits, AND functions...to date, I've tried 3 others. One wouldn't even go all the way in, another seated ok but wouldn't let the slide come all the way back, and the 3rd simply jammed on every round. SO far, the only magazine I've found the works properly in MY gun is the one it had in it, when I got it. Not actively looking for a spare mag anymore...for that gun, a spare mag was just a wish, not a requirement for me. The gun I have is apparently enough of an "oddball" that I probably should look at getting something else if I want more .32acp "firepower".
Since selling my old Savage, my only .32ACP is a WWII era Mauser HSc.
Never had any trouble with rimlock, with ball ammo, ball reloads, or Hornady 60gr jhp reloads.
Compared to more modern designs, the HSc is a brick. However, I don't find that an entirely bad thing. It's not the lightest possible thing to put in a pocket, but I prefer a gun with a bit of "heft". First, recoil is about nil, but more important (to me), is a .32acp, a round that doesn't have a stellar reputation for excess power, and I figure worst possible case, I want a gun with some steel in it, if I have to hit someone with it.
Now, if only I could find a magazine that both fits, AND functions...to date, I've tried 3 others. One wouldn't even go all the way in, another seated ok but wouldn't let the slide come all the way back, and the 3rd simply jammed on every round. SO far, the only magazine I've found the works properly in MY gun is the one it had in it, when I got it. Not actively looking for a spare mag anymore...for that gun, a spare mag was just a wish, not a requirement for me. The gun I have is apparently enough of an "oddball" that I probably should look at getting something else if I want more .32acp "firepower".
I sometimes carry 32acp as the carry round in my H&R 732 snub nose revolver. It was designed to handle both 32 short & long and while I doubt it would last more than a few decades if exposed to a constant diet of modern 32acp loads I'm old too and likely not going to be here in a couple decades to find out.
Found these at Aim Surplus if anyone is looking for a 32ACP pistol. I like 32s and these have my attention right now.
https://aimsurplus.com/yugoslavian-zastava-model-70-32-acp-pistol
Jar I don't think you have much to worry about with those rounds in your revolver. First they are undersized for the chamber and throats and the bullets are undersized for the bore. That should help keep the pressure down. I have watched a couple of youtube videos and they show the 32acp to be inaccurate when fired in a revolver. That was my experience when I tried them in a S&W model 31 with 4 barrel. They made noise but I couldn't hit anything very far away.
But use ammo designed for your gun and you should get a jump in accuracy and performance.
https://aimsurplus.com/yugoslavian-zastava-model-70-32-acp-pistol
Jar I don't think you have much to worry about with those rounds in your revolver. First they are undersized for the chamber and throats and the bullets are undersized for the bore. That should help keep the pressure down. I have watched a couple of youtube videos and they show the 32acp to be inaccurate when fired in a revolver. That was my experience when I tried them in a S&W model 31 with 4 barrel. They made noise but I couldn't hit anything very far away.
But use ammo designed for your gun and you should get a jump in accuracy and performance.
http://www.ballistics101.com/32_acp.php
Hope this link works. 32 acp, if that what you have and you like it, carry it. I would think if you were to start putting extra vent holes in a bad guy be it 22lr, 32 acp or what ever you have may not be a one shot fight stopper it should give you a chance to get to safety.
Hope this link works. 32 acp, if that what you have and you like it, carry it. I would think if you were to start putting extra vent holes in a bad guy be it 22lr, 32 acp or what ever you have may not be a one shot fight stopper it should give you a chance to get to safety.
Cosmodragoon
New member
I have carried .32 acp in the distant past. The only reason to do it today is probably if it is your only gun or if you need a really tiny gun. In any case, I wouldn't get too hung up on the type of ammo. Just make sure the ammo you choose is reliable in your gun. Accept that you'll be carrying .32 acp. Be happy that it'll do more than a .22 or .25 and practice regularly.