<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg Volk: ... want an advantage in the ensuing fist-fight ... [/quote]When applying for the CWL, it was spelled out with examples that being "punched around" is not sufficient cause to legally use a firearm -- fear of "death" or "grave bodily injury" is required.
.32 ACP for Concealed Carry?
- Thread starter Therapydude
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FUD AMIGO!
Thank you for the link to the marshal satistics!
I agree with you that a 9mm or a .45 (preferably in long colt) would be the optimum. I also agree that it IS possable to carry in the "Belly Band" holster you advocate. Somevery good arguments for the .32 side can be presented. However before that let me warn those who feel armed with a .25 auto!
Not just one but numerous cases abound where the .25 failed to penetrate the skull! One happened close to where I live when a daughter emptied a Full Magazine of .25 into her mothers head...she is now in Jail and being sued by her mother for the disfigurement!!! The satistics for the .25 hover in the 20% range for many loads!
Now the argument for the .32 acp
1. The sucsess rate is 50% for fmj. This is comperable to a .38 ( not plus "P").
2. The ease of carry makes a .32 more available to the defender......even stacked up against a 9mm in a "belly band" holster. The problem as I see, is the speed and effectivenes to which a Majority (not including pro's like you Fud) of the majority of the C.C.W. population could pull out, aim and fire from such a "deep cover" position. ( Verses the Kell-Tec cliped in a cross-draw inside the pants).
3. Full power loads in such small auto pistols are prone to having shooters "limpwrist" rounds and Jam the wepon. This can happen to anybody as the angle/grip and a whole host of factors changes once you are in a deadly situation. I have heard from numerous people who are not able to shoot Khars or Mini-Glocks with out having the Gun jam....obviosly they need more training...still having such a tight and steady grip on a gun in a fight is not guaranteed!!!
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THERAPYDUDE!, your instructor is a fool. He takes one rotten apple ( the .25) and extends this to the .32!!! Take a good look at the satistics that Fud has kindly provided us...
If you want to take FUD's advice, thats fine, just be sure to shoot the pistol BEFORE you buy it!! I love the 9mm, but I carry a nickled ppk in .380...( wish the Kell-tec came out years ago!) If you buy the "Kill-Tec" do be sure to get the Chromed slide...I hear that the blued can rust a bit easy...
Peace
IZZY
Thank you for the link to the marshal satistics!
I agree with you that a 9mm or a .45 (preferably in long colt) would be the optimum. I also agree that it IS possable to carry in the "Belly Band" holster you advocate. Somevery good arguments for the .32 side can be presented. However before that let me warn those who feel armed with a .25 auto!
Not just one but numerous cases abound where the .25 failed to penetrate the skull! One happened close to where I live when a daughter emptied a Full Magazine of .25 into her mothers head...she is now in Jail and being sued by her mother for the disfigurement!!! The satistics for the .25 hover in the 20% range for many loads!
Now the argument for the .32 acp
1. The sucsess rate is 50% for fmj. This is comperable to a .38 ( not plus "P").
2. The ease of carry makes a .32 more available to the defender......even stacked up against a 9mm in a "belly band" holster. The problem as I see, is the speed and effectivenes to which a Majority (not including pro's like you Fud) of the majority of the C.C.W. population could pull out, aim and fire from such a "deep cover" position. ( Verses the Kell-Tec cliped in a cross-draw inside the pants).
3. Full power loads in such small auto pistols are prone to having shooters "limpwrist" rounds and Jam the wepon. This can happen to anybody as the angle/grip and a whole host of factors changes once you are in a deadly situation. I have heard from numerous people who are not able to shoot Khars or Mini-Glocks with out having the Gun jam....obviosly they need more training...still having such a tight and steady grip on a gun in a fight is not guaranteed!!!
_____________________________________________
THERAPYDUDE!, your instructor is a fool. He takes one rotten apple ( the .25) and extends this to the .32!!! Take a good look at the satistics that Fud has kindly provided us...
If you want to take FUD's advice, thats fine, just be sure to shoot the pistol BEFORE you buy it!! I love the 9mm, but I carry a nickled ppk in .380...( wish the Kell-tec came out years ago!) If you buy the "Kill-Tec" do be sure to get the Chromed slide...I hear that the blued can rust a bit easy...
Peace
IZZY
FUD,
Of course if the guy who was punching you in the face was to make a death threat( which I'm sure is what OLEG ment to say)...that is called imperfect self defense! With a good lawyer lot's o' greenbacks and time you would probly get off the crimminal charges
Then come civil suits and the lesser amount of evidence required to strip you of the rest of your estate!
Of course we all hope that the gun will just be a deterant and that none of us actualy has to go to court! In that arena Fud's "Bigger Gun" Philosophy wins...if you are as dedicated as he is!
Of course if the guy who was punching you in the face was to make a death threat( which I'm sure is what OLEG ment to say)...that is called imperfect self defense! With a good lawyer lot's o' greenbacks and time you would probly get off the crimminal charges
Then come civil suits and the lesser amount of evidence required to strip you of the rest of your estate!Of course we all hope that the gun will just be a deterant and that none of us actualy has to go to court! In that arena Fud's "Bigger Gun" Philosophy wins...if you are as dedicated as he is!
I *hear* about rust but my blue P32 isn't rusting yet in spite of being in very damp environments over the last year. I did get a chrome P11 though. Chrome P32, btw, has red on white sights which seem more visible than (dirty) white on black of the regular version. I am thinking of getting a chromed P32 in addition to the blued version (maybe just a slide, maybe a whole new gun)
Interesting thread. FWIW, recently my brother gave me a .32 ACP double deringer. This is not a gun I'd ever have bought for myself. But it's very small, light, and concealable, and, most of all, it's a gun.
A highly-trained LEO friend of mine has told me more than once that *any* gun is better than no gun, and I tend to believe him. So, the more I look at this .32 deringer, the more I can see carrying it either as a backup or when I can't carry anything larger. IOW, I don't see it as a preferred defense, but it might have a purpose when anything is better than nothing.
[This message has been edited by jimmy (edited June 01, 2000).]
A highly-trained LEO friend of mine has told me more than once that *any* gun is better than no gun, and I tend to believe him. So, the more I look at this .32 deringer, the more I can see carrying it either as a backup or when I can't carry anything larger. IOW, I don't see it as a preferred defense, but it might have a purpose when anything is better than nothing.
[This message has been edited by jimmy (edited June 01, 2000).]
IZZY, I'm far from a pro (just a gun owner who had some LEO training a couple of decades ago and worked in a related field for a few years) and I didn't mean to discount the virtues of the .32ACP but I'm sitting here with my Raven .25ACP in one hand and my Kahr MK9 in the other and they are not much different in size -- the Raven is smaller but not by much and I understand that the MK9 and the PPK are the same size (never personally verified it myself but that's what the documentation says). Considering the relative sizes, I would rather have a 9mm. First as a deterant and secondly, for actual use. Yes, the kick from the MK9 is snappy but manageable with practise.
Also, here's a link to the The Fackerites's views on stopping power. Marshall & Sanow believe that lite & fast is best and supply numbers as proof while the Fackerites believe that heavy & slow is best and they supply their own numbers as proof. I have no personal experience in this area and since both sides seem to present good arguements (I give a slight edge to Marshall & Sanow), I alternate every other round -- better to be half wrong than all wrong.
Sorry for taking this trend in another direction. My final advise is to carry the biggest caliber gun that you can accurately shoot. And the key word here is "carry". I can accurate shoot a 4013TSW and even though it is classified as a "compact", it's still to big to carry concealed under my given situation. Additionally, the MK40 is about the same size as the MK9 but I find it to be too powerful a round to effectively shoot out of such a small gun. The finally answer is ... CARRY THE BIGGEST CALIBER YOU CAN EFFECTIVELY SHOOT.
Also, here's a link to the The Fackerites's views on stopping power. Marshall & Sanow believe that lite & fast is best and supply numbers as proof while the Fackerites believe that heavy & slow is best and they supply their own numbers as proof. I have no personal experience in this area and since both sides seem to present good arguements (I give a slight edge to Marshall & Sanow), I alternate every other round -- better to be half wrong than all wrong.
Sorry for taking this trend in another direction. My final advise is to carry the biggest caliber gun that you can accurately shoot. And the key word here is "carry". I can accurate shoot a 4013TSW and even though it is classified as a "compact", it's still to big to carry concealed under my given situation. Additionally, the MK40 is about the same size as the MK9 but I find it to be too powerful a round to effectively shoot out of such a small gun. The finally answer is ... CARRY THE BIGGEST CALIBER YOU CAN EFFECTIVELY SHOOT.
FUD,
I wonder what mesurments the literature talked about? Is it as Thin as the ppk? Even still I wish I had a Kell-tec" in .32! The recoil on those little guns is much better than My all steel ppk! (Alot lighter too!) The cartrage is about the same as .380 in its usage.
If I get a chance I will try to find a Khar-9 to fire and mesure. till' then I will advocate the Kell-tec ...not the ppk!
I wonder what mesurments the literature talked about? Is it as Thin as the ppk? Even still I wish I had a Kell-tec" in .32! The recoil on those little guns is much better than My all steel ppk! (Alot lighter too!) The cartrage is about the same as .380 in its usage.
If I get a chance I will try to find a Khar-9 to fire and mesure. till' then I will advocate the Kell-tec ...not the ppk!
I had a .32 on my CCW until 2 yrs ago when the new sheriff decided no one could carry anything less than .38.........soooooooo...
now I carry a .38
Dang, that .32 was nice an tiny, but a Chief Spl. drops in a back pocket too.
I also have the 9mm an the .45 on the CCW but I like to carry light.
now I carry a .38
Dang, that .32 was nice an tiny, but a Chief Spl. drops in a back pocket too.
I also have the 9mm an the .45 on the CCW but I like to carry light.
Even with Foicchi hollowpoints (60gr) the P32 will put rounds through a large metal coffee can at 25 yds easily. I don't feel at all bad about carrying it. BTW, the Kel tec P32 gives the highest velocities of any of the super compact 32s due to the browning style lockup. It also tips the scales at 9.5 oz. loaded. If I remember correctly the fiocchi 60gr gets 1050-70 fps. Plus, like he said, it'll go through a refridgerator door.
riddleofsteel
New member
haven't we been down this road before?
here is the slant from my view. Fud is right. there are now 9mm's and even .40 auto's no larger though somewhat more weighty than the typical .25,.32,.380.
if you feel secure with a "mouse gun" so be it. but i challenge you to do some varmiting or light hunting with your mouse gun. i think you will be amazed at not only how hard it is to hit a ground hog, feral cat, ground squirrel or coyote with your deminutive pistols but also how little damage one can do.
do a search under the string "Handguns poor tool for crisis mangagement". in it you can see that even so called major power cartridges often fail to do the job.
you won't catch me leaving the house with less than a .38 +p or a fast 9mm.
JMHO
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
here is the slant from my view. Fud is right. there are now 9mm's and even .40 auto's no larger though somewhat more weighty than the typical .25,.32,.380.
if you feel secure with a "mouse gun" so be it. but i challenge you to do some varmiting or light hunting with your mouse gun. i think you will be amazed at not only how hard it is to hit a ground hog, feral cat, ground squirrel or coyote with your deminutive pistols but also how little damage one can do.
do a search under the string "Handguns poor tool for crisis mangagement". in it you can see that even so called major power cartridges often fail to do the job.
you won't catch me leaving the house with less than a .38 +p or a fast 9mm.
JMHO
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
Alex Johnson
New member
While you will get no arguement from me concerning the .25 as a poor choice for concealed carry, I do find it somewhat difficult to buy totally into the claims of ineffectiveness many seem to feel of the round. Statistically the .25 has accounted for it's fair share of homicides in the past, and if you look at the Florida incident, I'm sure it will continue to do so in the future. I have a Baby Browning style .25 and while I don't consider it to be a good choice for concealed carry, it does give good penetration with Blazer's 50 grain ball, it is also very reliable with this particular load. Having seen those little 50 grain bullets penetrate over 4 inches in a pine log I find it hard to believe that they would lack the power to punch through a human skull. I can see how they could glance off if hit at an angle, but I don't give much thought to the claims that they would fail to penetrate at close range with a direct hit. The .25 may be a lousy choice for a concealed carry gun, but in the right hands, with careful shots, I don't think the user would be exactly defenseless.
You can date me and my best friend by our belief that Sean Connery is the *real* James Bond. Where the friend and I split was 1) my dad had a Beretta mod 34 380 with that rococco look and 2) I read the Fleming book where they took 007's 25 away and made him carry a 32 ppk or a 38spl model 38 bodyguard. I never forgave 007 for throwing away a 38 for a measly 32. Fast forward... the friend gets the PPK 7.65. I, on the other hand make several trips into half a dozen gunshops, with money in my pocket, thinking this will be the time I go through and get one. Until invariably I try that double action trigger that would make an olympic weightlifter cringe. Then one day here's a commercial 32 cal Beretta model 35, '52 proof marks, in just barely worn enough condition to shoot without guilt. ( Bring up the background music to "Happy together" ).
Ah, so romantic, right? And an empty 3 pound coffee can actually holds 2 lbs. 4 ozs. of coffee when you buy it. Now the coffee's gone want to guess what it holds? 27 loaded HKS model 57 speedloaders - 41 magnum silvertips. The can sits next to my 3 4" (41 mag) fixed sight model 58 M&P's and a 4" (41 mag) adj. sight model 57.
I love my 32 but I grab the battle rifles, assault rifles, pistol caliber carbines, shotguns, and heavy caliber pistols first when I can.
P.S.: I'm not that into the 41 mag. New metallurgy, N frame, fixed sight M&P revolver, that I'm into. There's a firm that replaces the S&W adjustable sights with high profile pinned (?) single piece rear sights and a dovetailed front, different heights available and windage drift adjustable. Once sighted add tritiums, match those sights with their upgraded mechanism on the latest mod. 29s, and chamber for 45 acp/ar/super, dehorn, and let me have a half dozen to stash strategically. Elegant dream gun. I'd settle for half a dozen same run nice and tight model 10's in 38 regulated for 158LSWHP+P+.
Too late in evening, drifting in and out at the keyboard nite all
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"They asked would I fight for my country; I answered the FBI, yea!
"I will point a gun for my country but, I won't guarantee you which way."
Woody Guthrie
[This message has been edited by Rusty S (edited June 01, 2000).]
Ah, so romantic, right? And an empty 3 pound coffee can actually holds 2 lbs. 4 ozs. of coffee when you buy it. Now the coffee's gone want to guess what it holds? 27 loaded HKS model 57 speedloaders - 41 magnum silvertips. The can sits next to my 3 4" (41 mag) fixed sight model 58 M&P's and a 4" (41 mag) adj. sight model 57.
I love my 32 but I grab the battle rifles, assault rifles, pistol caliber carbines, shotguns, and heavy caliber pistols first when I can.
P.S.: I'm not that into the 41 mag. New metallurgy, N frame, fixed sight M&P revolver, that I'm into. There's a firm that replaces the S&W adjustable sights with high profile pinned (?) single piece rear sights and a dovetailed front, different heights available and windage drift adjustable. Once sighted add tritiums, match those sights with their upgraded mechanism on the latest mod. 29s, and chamber for 45 acp/ar/super, dehorn, and let me have a half dozen to stash strategically. Elegant dream gun. I'd settle for half a dozen same run nice and tight model 10's in 38 regulated for 158LSWHP+P+.
Too late in evening, drifting in and out at the keyboard nite all
------------------
"They asked would I fight for my country; I answered the FBI, yea!
"I will point a gun for my country but, I won't guarantee you which way."
Woody Guthrie
[This message has been edited by Rusty S (edited June 01, 2000).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex Johnson: ... Statistically the .25 has accounted for it's fair share of homicides in the past, and if you look at the Florida incident, I'm sure it will continue to do so in the future ...[/quote]At the risk of repeating myself, it isn't about "killing", it's about "stopping" (read my earlier post about the deputy's wife who killed her attacker but wasn't able to stop him before he killed her). Under the right circumstances, you can shoot me with a .22 short and I'll be dead within minutes. But under less than ideal circumstances, people have taken multiple hits in the center of mass from more powerful calibers and continued to be a hostile threat for several minutes later -- the most famous example of this in recent memory is the FBI shoot-out in Miami where a BG took a couple of 9mm's in the arm & chest and continued firing for several minutes causing the death of an agent.
In real-world shootings, the BEST that the .25 has been able to demonstrate was a 25% stopping rate (again, we're talking "stopping", not "killing"). The .32 has a 63% success rate. The .380 claims 70%. The 9mm, 91% and 96% for the .40S&W. Again, these are the stopping percentages with the BEST loads in each caliber.
IZZY, if you can get your hands on the 3/2000 issue of Combat Handguns, on page 51 is a photo of the PPK and the MK9 side by side. I don't have access to a scanner, otherwise I would post the photo here. Looking at the picture, the two guns are almost exactly the same size. The PPK has a slimmer & more pointed barrel while the MK9 is more square and boxy. Other than that, the two guns are the same size. To be perfectly honest with you, I prefer the DA/SA design of the PPK as I am not too fond of DAO in pistols. I just don't feel comfortable trusting my life or my loved one to a .32 or a .380 when I can get a 9mm in the same size and still be able to shoot it accurately.
In real-world shootings, the BEST that the .25 has been able to demonstrate was a 25% stopping rate (again, we're talking "stopping", not "killing"). The .32 has a 63% success rate. The .380 claims 70%. The 9mm, 91% and 96% for the .40S&W. Again, these are the stopping percentages with the BEST loads in each caliber.
IZZY, if you can get your hands on the 3/2000 issue of Combat Handguns, on page 51 is a photo of the PPK and the MK9 side by side. I don't have access to a scanner, otherwise I would post the photo here. Looking at the picture, the two guns are almost exactly the same size. The PPK has a slimmer & more pointed barrel while the MK9 is more square and boxy. Other than that, the two guns are the same size. To be perfectly honest with you, I prefer the DA/SA design of the PPK as I am not too fond of DAO in pistols. I just don't feel comfortable trusting my life or my loved one to a .32 or a .380 when I can get a 9mm in the same size and still be able to shoot it accurately.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bdog5150:
Even with Foicchi hollowpoints (60gr) the P32 will put rounds through a large metal coffee can at 25 yds easily. I don't feel at all bad about carrying it. BTW, the Kel tec P32 gives the highest velocities of any of the super compact 32s due to the browning style lockup. It also tips the scales at 9.5 oz. loaded. If I remember correctly the fiocchi 60gr gets 1050-70 fps. Plus, like he said, it'll go through a refridgerator door. [/quote]
That's not quite what I said: Fiocchi ball reliably penetrated fridge door AND back wall and went into the backstop. That was impressive by comparison with .22 Mini-mags which failed to go though even the vinyl covering the door, much less the sheet metal backing (old fridge). P32 can be hard to fire accurately but it is adequate to about 25ft, IMO.
Even with Foicchi hollowpoints (60gr) the P32 will put rounds through a large metal coffee can at 25 yds easily. I don't feel at all bad about carrying it. BTW, the Kel tec P32 gives the highest velocities of any of the super compact 32s due to the browning style lockup. It also tips the scales at 9.5 oz. loaded. If I remember correctly the fiocchi 60gr gets 1050-70 fps. Plus, like he said, it'll go through a refridgerator door. [/quote]
That's not quite what I said: Fiocchi ball reliably penetrated fridge door AND back wall and went into the backstop. That was impressive by comparison with .22 Mini-mags which failed to go though even the vinyl covering the door, much less the sheet metal backing (old fridge). P32 can be hard to fire accurately but it is adequate to about 25ft, IMO.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by riddleofsteel:
Fud is right. there are now 9mm's and even .40 auto's no larger though somewhat more weighty than the typical .25,.32,.380. [/quote]
However, the smallest and lightest examples of .32 are much smaller than the smallest/lightest .380 (by about half!)
Then again, we don't carry 4mm Kolibri just because it is tiny. IMO, .32 is better than other means of defense that do not need to be concealed or are equally small. Folks proficient with knives, staffs or other weapons, or those able to carry a .38/380 may well prefer other options.
Fud is right. there are now 9mm's and even .40 auto's no larger though somewhat more weighty than the typical .25,.32,.380. [/quote]
However, the smallest and lightest examples of .32 are much smaller than the smallest/lightest .380 (by about half!)
Then again, we don't carry 4mm Kolibri just because it is tiny. IMO, .32 is better than other means of defense that do not need to be concealed or are equally small. Folks proficient with knives, staffs or other weapons, or those able to carry a .38/380 may well prefer other options.
I have yet to encounter a situation where I couldn't conceal my MK9. If such a situation does come up, I'll be carrying my North American Arms Guardian chambered in .32ACP. Always carry the biggest caliber that you can conceal and fire accurately. For example, I can conceal a Kahr MK40 but for me, it has too much of a kick in such a small package to shoot accurately and I'm better off with the MK9. I can accurately shoot a Smith & Wesson 4013TSW but I can't conceal it with a bulge here or there since it accepts a double stack magazine and I'm better off with the 3913TSW since it is single stack. Again, carry the biggest caliber that you can conceal well and fire accurately.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg Volk:
P32 can be hard to fire accurately but it is adequate to about 25ft, IMO.[/quote]
Or, as we like to say in the South, a carry gun only needs to be accurate across the length of a card table.
Regards,
Ken Strayhorn
Hillsborough NC
P32 can be hard to fire accurately but it is adequate to about 25ft, IMO.[/quote]
Or, as we like to say in the South, a carry gun only needs to be accurate across the length of a card table.
Regards,
Ken Strayhorn
Hillsborough NC
My .02. My KT P-32 has in an M/D enterprises pocket holster has become an extremely convenient was to always carry (no worries about printing, etc.), and I probably rely on it too much. BUT, I don't feel it's underpowered for MOST situations (though of course you want to be prepared for Murphy's law). I wouldn't cary a .25, but feel the .32 is adequate in a pinch.
DO NOT use Glasers, MagSafes or other frangible stuff in these, because penetration is the main concern. You might go for expansion/fragmentation and end up getting the bounce-off-the-skull thing in a worse case scenario, which means you lose. So use ball ammo, IMO, and this WILL penetrate bone sufficiently, and therefore incapacitation is likely to occur, PROVIDED shot placement is good, as always.
DO NOT use Glasers, MagSafes or other frangible stuff in these, because penetration is the main concern. You might go for expansion/fragmentation and end up getting the bounce-off-the-skull thing in a worse case scenario, which means you lose. So use ball ammo, IMO, and this WILL penetrate bone sufficiently, and therefore incapacitation is likely to occur, PROVIDED shot placement is good, as always.
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