308 accuracy

The internet is full of 1/2" factory rifles......that is until any of them show up at the range....then it's a rare occasion to see one that will shoot 1" @ 100 yards.

3/4" groups are darn good for a factory rig......How much better were you looking to shoot?

I'm with Bart B on this one.....do you think that Federal GMM ammo uses bullets that are sorted by weight? Or cases that are sorted by weight? I doubt it.

Going from 3/4" to 1/2" groups is difficult with a factory gun. Try some of the recommended techniques outlined in the previous posts and see what happens. It certainly won't hurt.

.....and like Unclenick said....scientifically proven data is scarce at best. So be very wary of internet advice.
 
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I haven't shot a ton of VLDs (or other super high BC bullets), but I've tinkered around with them enough to see that they are fussy and frequently won't shine at short range. If you're not shooting at least mid-range, I'd avoid them and see what you get with a flat base match bullet.

You get out to 400-500+ yds, and the BC starts to pay off against the wind vs traditional match bullet profiles and it may be worth the effort.
 
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Jeffers You will never find THE LOAD for your rifle in any manual you will need to work for it . Start smart look at data see what happens when you add new components . But most importantly shoot shoot and shoot some more keep track of what you are doing all the changes count .

Loading can be the hobby you thought shooting was .
 
'Tis my opinion that most people shoot 1 or 2 few-shot groups with a given recipe in their rifle, then if one's the smallest compared to other recipe's they've tried, that's the one that'll deliver best accuracy in their rifle.

Many will believe that all few-shot groups with that recipe will also be about that same size. And that small group defines the accuracy of that load in that rifle.

Is it possible that many following few-shot groups with that recipe will be larger? And a few will be much, much larger?

It's popular to define accuracy as the smallest group shot. Doesn't matter if 90% of later ones are larger.

The average of several few-shot groups is a better method. Shooting all of those groups atop each other is best. Then you'll see that about 40% of the shots are in the inner 40% of the extreme spread, 30% in the next 30%, 20 in the next 20 and 10% in the outer 10%. That 10-20-30-40 rule of thumb is for ammo fired in rifles hand-held to ones shoulder; rested on something or not.
 
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Originally posted by KEYBEAR
Jeffers You will never find THE LOAD for your rifle in any manual you will need to work for it . Start smart look at data see what happens when you add new components . But most importantly shoot shoot and shoot some more keep track of what you are doing all the changes count .

Loading can be the hobby you thought shooting was .
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I agree. That is what I do. I was asking if the OP got a load from a book or buddy. I keep pretty good records and vary only one thing at a time, and greatly enjoy both shooting and handloading for hobbies.
 
If measuring and weighing works for him!

I know jwrowland77 doesn't have the experience some have but he is dedicated and works hard at improving his shooting skills. With more time and experience I see him competing at the National matches one day. Who knows I may go to Ohio and watch him compete, my wife was born/raised near Oberlin, Ohio!!

Engineer in the U.S.Army--August 1962-August 1965
Amateur Radio Adv/Class license KB5CH (WD5AHR my 1st call sign 1977)
Master Mechanic retired USPS 10-31-1965--05-31-1997
TSJC Gunsmithing 1999-2001
I contracted and built the home I currently live in 10-01-2004..

William
 
William T., anyone who pays the entry fees can enter then compete in the Nationals. Even if he's never fired a shot a single round in competition before in his life. Doesn't matter to the NRA what marksmanship or reloading skills one has.
 
Bart B. said:
Sierra Bullets does no bullet sorting...
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That's for sure!
Weighing bullets, Sierra Match Kings all day for days on end in the military...
*Supposed*... to be 168 Grain,
Half the box will be a grain or two off one direction or the other, some will be 5 grains up or down,

Then you hit them with the micrometer, and find out they are +/- 0.003" or more, all over the place...

I was beginning to believe we could de-link Lake City machine gun rounds from the belts and get a more consistent bullet... :rolleyes:
 
JeepHammer said:
That's for sure!

Weighing bullets, Sierra Match Kings all day for days on end in the military...

*Supposed*... to be 168 Grain,

Half the box will be a grain or two off one direction or the other, some will be 5 grains up or down,



Then you hit them with the micrometer, and find out they are +/- 0.003" or more, all over the place...



I was beginning to believe we could de-link Lake City machine gun rounds from the belts and get a more consistent bullet... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...


Guess I'm not the only one that knows how inconsistent they are. Hmmm.....
 
I started reading the one gun forum rec.guns in the early 1990s.
In there were guys who talked about the 1" 5 shot group at 100 yards.
I had been to a lot of shooting ranges and seen a lot of targets, and never saw a 1" group.
I tried 308s with 168 gr Sierra Match Kings, IMR4895, etc rifle after rifle and never got close to a 1" group. I still own over a dozen 308s and none has ever got a 1" group.

By 2002 I had seen:
1) a Win M70 coyote 223 and Federal Gold match ammo get a 1" group at Issaquah range.
2) Mosin Nagant with 180 gr Sierra with sewer pipe bore get a 1" group at Tacoma Sportsman range.

Eventually I made some breakthroughs. 1" groups in 2002 and 0.5" groups a week later with a 257 Roberts Ackley with 75 gr Vmax Lothar Walther light varmint barrel on a VZ24 with 40X scope.

To get to this level, I made a list of things that matter and things that do not.

In 2015 I realized that my list of things that do not matter, do matter, but cannot be resolved with 5 shot groups.

The difference between 308 and any other deer cartridge in accuracy is buried in that difference I could not measure with 5 shot groups.

What does it all mean?
If improvements 5 shot groups at 100 yards is what you seek, the cartridge is irrelevant. The techniques are generic. I will list some

1) Test rifles in 6 mph or less wind or test at 50 yards.
2) Use a 10X or more expensive scope or a 14X or more cheap scope.
3) Spend two hours and ruin several bronze brushes getting the Copper out. The brush does no good if the bristles measure less than the groove diameter. Brushes can wear out in 10 strokes and become hand me downs to smaller calibers. You may only get 10 shots before you are Copper fouled again, and the first shot is a fouling shot. So have the rifle sighted in when you clean it. Look into the muzzle at a 45 degree angle, and rotate the rifle. You should be able to see the last 1/4" of lands and grooves. The Copper may appear a Gold color or a red color. You must scrub until all Copper is gone.
4) Most rifles get the best group at 50y or 100y with a reduced load with faster powder and light weight Vmax bullets seated long.
5) Don't use an expander ball. If a piece of brass has been resized and used an expander ball in the same step, it is now bent. The best way to get the neck straight again is to fire the brass again. We don't like bent necks because that makes the rear end of the bullet not concentric with the bore.
6) Seat the bullet long. Half way between touching the lands and getting stuck in the lands. If the front end of the bullet is jammed into the lands, at least ONE end of the bullet is concentric with the bore.
7) Practice dry firing on the bench until the cross hairs stay on the bullseye. Adjust bags, benchrest, posture, or whatever it takes.
8) Float the barrel. Use a dollar bill to check that the barrel does not touch the stock from the end of the stock all the way back to within and inch of the receiver. Anything touches the barrel, sand, chisel, drill, or file it out of there.
9) Make sure the scope mounts [or bases as Brownells calls them] are tight to the receiver. Those screws commonly get loose. The ring screws never get loose. But very often bad groups are caused by loose scope mount screws.
10) Make sure the action screws are tight. Hold the rifle with one hand on the rifle wrist and with the other palm, punch the barrel. The barrel and stock vibrating like a tuning fork sound should be a bongggggg. Not a buzzz. Not a bump. The under damped exponential decay of a sinusoid indicates a stiff connection. We need it stiff to make the stock count as part of and a consistent part of the recoil reaction before bullet escapement.

Here are some things that will show no improvement measurable with 5 shot groups:
Little or no effect on accuracy
1) True the action face
2) true the inner C ring
3) lap the lugs
4) true the bolt face
5) chase the threads
6) speed up the lock time
7) glass bed the action
8) pillar bed the action
9) get a 1 ounce trigger
10) turn the case necks
11) weigh the brass
12) de burr the flash holes
13) weigh each powder charge
14) try different powders
15) use benchrest primers
16) lap the scope rings.
17) Dial in bore when chambering
18) re crown the muzzle
 
Just my 2 cents. Change bullet to Serria 168 match, change primer to GM210M, Change powder to 4895, or RL-15. Never have been a fan of Burger Bullets, way to picky for me.

Clark- Not to pick here, but I do believe your off on a few things here. The test's have been done on most of what you say makes no difference. Results were a gain of up 2% accuracy increase for each step. Most any 308 ( any caliber for that matter) should hold 1 inch or less at 100 yards with out to much effort.
MOA and sub MOA rifles are very numerous now days.I have 9 sub MOA rifles and I only have 9 rifles:D
 
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4runnerman said:
Just my 2 cents. Change bullet to Serria 168 match, change primer to GM210M, Change powder to 4895, or RL-15. Never have been a fan of Burger Bullets, way to picky for me.
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Have you tried that new powder 4166?

Great powder. Ran some test on it and it works great for .308.
 
Maybe have to give it a try. I use 43.2 gn RL-15 and 168 Serria . She shoots pretty awesome with that load, But more load develpment:D:D:D. Thats the fun of it.
 
Weighing bullets, Sierra Match Kings all day for days on end in the military... *Supposed*... to be 168 Grain, Half the box will be a grain or two off one direction or the other, some will be 5 grains up or down, Then you hit them with the micrometer, and find out they are +/- 0.003" or more, all over the place...
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I don't believe those numbers. I do believe some people cannot measure things precisely.

Did anyone knowing about that contact Sierra about them and secure replacements? If not, they're worse than those numbers are.

Sierra grabs 10 bullets as they come out of the final pointing die (at about 90 per minute) forming their ogive at the end of their production line; they still have greasy lanolin based lube on them. They're seated in primed and charged case then shot in a rail gun. Target's measured, recorded, then back to the production line to grab 10 more. As long as the accuracy meets specs, the barrel under that last stage keeps filling up. They they're polished in rubber cement mixers and visually inspected for flaws and randomly checked for weight. Finally packaged in green boxes for retail.
 
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I went through a couple of the 500 count boxes of the 175's and measurements ranged from .642-.653 from base to ogive. That to me is just unacceptable.
 
JW, I've shot 1/2 MOA groups at 800 and 1000 yards with 30 caliber Sierra HPMK's having that much spread in bullet dimensions to places on its ogive. That's the least important dimension in bullet quality.

Note it's the base to ogive diameter somewhere between bullet diameter and about .008" less that matters. Any smaller diameter on the ogive with 30 caliber bullets doesn't matter because it doesn't touch the rifling at all. What was the diameter of your gauging point on the ogive?

Tried to find out what Hornady's gauge diameters are, but all they mention is the bullet diameter; .308" for 30 caliber ones. I would hope they're no bigger than .307 and not smaller than .301" at the reference diameter that touches the bullet.

One other important thing. If the gauge's contact diameter on a bullet is not the same diameter as the barrel throat has, it may not mean much. The throat may touch the bullet at a different place than the gauge does.
 
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If folks spent half as much time shooting as they do fussing over things that make no difference in accuracy their groups would improve that extra 1/4" most are looking for. I have no excuse though.....my shooting is terrible no matter what I do......:eek:
 
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