With 95% of my firearms experience being handguns I don't have much rifle experience. I own a 30-30 lever Marlin that I like but want to start getting into longer distance target shooting. I keep hearing try the .308 or .243. The .308 seems to be more popular. Any opinions on how much of a difference there is between the 30-30 I own and a .308? The .308 rifle I've been thinking about is a Savage Axis II. What are the major differences between the two? Am I just buying a very similar rifle to the one I already own?
30-30 to .308 difference?
- Thread starter KW Gary M
- Start date
Blindstitch
New member
The 308 is going to have 25% more powder to propel the bullet that much faster. My reloading manual shows boosting the bullet from traveling 2200fps to 2700fps with a 150 grain bullet.
Are you intending to hunt or just punch paper?
Are you intending to hunt or just punch paper?
Simply put, the .308 is an order of magnitude "more powerful" than the 30/30.
Standard loads for the 30/30, using a 170 grain bullet for example, will produce a muzzle velocity of about 2100 fps....with impact energy to match.
Standard loads for the .308, using a 168 grain bullet for example, will produce around 2800 fps.....with FAR greater impact energy.
Recoil will also be much greater with the .308, depending on the load.
Both 30 cal. rounds.....but two VERY different cartridges.
If you are considering getting into long range shooting, there are lots of good choices, depending on your needs. 1000 yard shooting, with any accuracy is, of course, the top of the heap in terms of equipment required. You'd be far better off if you set your goals to a bit more modest level, to start. For instance, 300-400 yards will still give a good challenge, but be easier to attain (and far less costly).
As for cartridges, you could go with anything from the .223, on up to large, much more exotic rounds, such as the .338 Lapua.
Starting out, with distances out to 300 to 400 yards maximum, I'd recommend the .223. Very accurate, flat shooting, not as expensive as many others, very common......and little recoil. There are lots of other cartridges that would do, however.
Standard loads for the 30/30, using a 170 grain bullet for example, will produce a muzzle velocity of about 2100 fps....with impact energy to match.
Standard loads for the .308, using a 168 grain bullet for example, will produce around 2800 fps.....with FAR greater impact energy.
Recoil will also be much greater with the .308, depending on the load.
Both 30 cal. rounds.....but two VERY different cartridges.
If you are considering getting into long range shooting, there are lots of good choices, depending on your needs. 1000 yard shooting, with any accuracy is, of course, the top of the heap in terms of equipment required. You'd be far better off if you set your goals to a bit more modest level, to start. For instance, 300-400 yards will still give a good challenge, but be easier to attain (and far less costly).
As for cartridges, you could go with anything from the .223, on up to large, much more exotic rounds, such as the .338 Lapua.
Starting out, with distances out to 300 to 400 yards maximum, I'd recommend the .223. Very accurate, flat shooting, not as expensive as many others, very common......and little recoil. There are lots of other cartridges that would do, however.
Jim Watson
New member
Apart from velocity, the main gain will be the greater accuracy of a bolt action vs a lever action.
I do like the idea of the .223 just because ammo is cheaper and being a new rifle shooter I am going to want to practice a lot. Will the .233 be accurate to distances up to 300-400 yards? For now I would mostly be target shooting but may want to hunt some. Will a .223 take a Hog or small to medium Deer?
Blindstitch
New member
To get the real answer behind this you should ask the DNR where you intend to hunt if it's legal to use for hunting.
Personally I wouldn't use it. But 243 or 308 yeah.
chris in va
New member
I've actually come to realize they are about the same. My Dad has a 336 and it's rather unpleasant to shoot. My Garand kicks much less despite being 30-06.
Jack O'Conner
New member
With standard hunting ammo, the 30-30 is a 200 yard cartridge.
With standard hunting ammo, the .308 is a 350 yard cartridge.
Jack
With standard hunting ammo, the .308 is a 350 yard cartridge.
Jack
Weight
Felt recoil is a very subjective thing. The weight of the weapon is a huge factor in how much recoil you feel.
The design of the stock plays a big role too, but weight is #1 IMHO.
Try shooting a cheapie single barrel 12 gauge with plain ol target loads, then try the same load in a gun set up for clay targets.
The clay target gun could be 9-10 Lbs. The cheapie single barrel maybe 6 Lbs.
The difference in felt recoil is quite dramatic.
Felt recoil is a very subjective thing. The weight of the weapon is a huge factor in how much recoil you feel.
The design of the stock plays a big role too, but weight is #1 IMHO.
Try shooting a cheapie single barrel 12 gauge with plain ol target loads, then try the same load in a gun set up for clay targets.
The clay target gun could be 9-10 Lbs. The cheapie single barrel maybe 6 Lbs.
The difference in felt recoil is quite dramatic.
The big difference (beside velocity for a given bullet weight) is the bullet shape.
The 30-30 is using a pretty inefficient bullet for distance. Round nose to safely load in a tube magazine.
The 308 is not hampered by this and bullets with MUCH better ballistics can be utilized.
The 308 can be used as a paper puncher out to 1000 yds if the shooter is up to it. The 30-30 wont even get close to that in the best of hands.
The 30-30 is using a pretty inefficient bullet for distance. Round nose to safely load in a tube magazine.
The 308 is not hampered by this and bullets with MUCH better ballistics can be utilized.
The 308 can be used as a paper puncher out to 1000 yds if the shooter is up to it. The 30-30 wont even get close to that in the best of hands.
I'm a little technology challenged and can't figure out how to post with a quote. Above Jack posted, post # 9 I believe, that the 30-30 will be accurate up to 200 yards. If that's the case I might hold off on the .308 until my skill reaches 200 yard shots or maybe look at the .223 taking advantage of the cheaper ammo. Any thoughts?
kilimanjaro
New member
Unless you have the eyes of Tom Horn, you're going to need a scope beginning at 200 yards, so might as well get a good bolt action deer rifle in .308 or .30-06, maybe a .270.
I think the .243 is too light for long range, windage is not friendly to light bullets.
You should be able to find something good for $450-$500 at the pawn shops or private sale.
I think working up from a .223 is the same as choosing a .243, you've got a light bullet, lots of expense, and you'll hit a wall at 400 yards and have to go to the .30-caliber anyway.
I think the .243 is too light for long range, windage is not friendly to light bullets.
You should be able to find something good for $450-$500 at the pawn shops or private sale.
I think working up from a .223 is the same as choosing a .243, you've got a light bullet, lots of expense, and you'll hit a wall at 400 yards and have to go to the .30-caliber anyway.
You mentioned two things. Distance shooting and hog hunting. For target shooting at long range the 308 or 223 will be better choices. For hog hunting the 30-30 would be just the ticket. Hogs are usually hunted up close in heavy brush. A fast firing lever gun works wonders for that type of hunting.
I have two 30-30s, a Marlin 336 and a Winchester 94. The marlin wears a scope and will stay in an inch and half group with most ammo. The winchester wears a peep sight and I haven't shot it on paper. But a gallon can is is deep danger at 100 yards from a field rest.
So the simple answer is to get both.
I have two 30-30s, a Marlin 336 and a Winchester 94. The marlin wears a scope and will stay in an inch and half group with most ammo. The winchester wears a peep sight and I haven't shot it on paper. But a gallon can is is deep danger at 100 yards from a field rest.
So the simple answer is to get both.
A 30-30 will work way past 200 yards. I used my marlin with a scope on it to shoot a couple of bowling balls to giblets at 300 yards. So it can be used that far but that is the extreme end of its useful range. A 308 would have been better.
The biggest advantage a 223 has is cheaper ammo. I prefer bigger bullets myself if if I am shooting at game.
The biggest advantage a 223 has is cheaper ammo. I prefer bigger bullets myself if if I am shooting at game.
"...Am I just buying a very similar rifle..." Nope. An order of magnitude is a bit extreme, but not energy wise. A 150 out of a .30-30 maxes at about 2400ish FPS. Out of a .308 it's just under 2900 FPS. 200 yard energy is roughly 2,176 foot/pounds for the .308. 832 ft/lbs. for a .30-30.
"...longer distance target shooting..." Covers a lot of stuff. Long range is 600 plus yards at 24" bullseye targets. Anyway, the .243 isn't a target round(even though there are match grade bullets now). The .308 is.
Hunting and target shooting are two totally different discussions.
A Savage Axis II is an entry level hunting rifle. Great for hunting. Not so much for formal target shooting.
"...longer distance target shooting..." Covers a lot of stuff. Long range is 600 plus yards at 24" bullseye targets. Anyway, the .243 isn't a target round(even though there are match grade bullets now). The .308 is.
Hunting and target shooting are two totally different discussions.
A Savage Axis II is an entry level hunting rifle. Great for hunting. Not so much for formal target shooting.
Of the .30 caliber rifle rounds, the .308 is (IMHO) the most versatile, economical, and reloader-forgiving on the market. It is the basis for the .243 Winchester, the 7mm-08, and .358 Winchester, all of which enjoy understated reputations, given their actual capabilities.
Don't wait until you're proficient with a .30-30 at 200 yards before you get a .308. Generally, the more capable the weapon, the faster the shooter will rise to higher capabilities.
You also have a great many knowledgeable shooters in this forum to help you on the way.
Don't wait until you're proficient with a .30-30 at 200 yards before you get a .308. Generally, the more capable the weapon, the faster the shooter will rise to higher capabilities.
You also have a great many knowledgeable shooters in this forum to help you on the way.
Actually, a 150grn rd nose 30-30 round is quoted by the commercial manufactures as 2,390fps while 150grn spitzer point .308 Winchester round is quoted by them at 2,820fps, an 18% increase in velocity. However, that's not the complete difference because the spitzer pointed .308 has a BC of .371 while the rd nose 30-30 has a BC of only .226 which translates to the 30-30's velocity and trajectory falling off significantly faster so that out at 200yds and beyond the more aerodynamic .308 is far superior.
Velocity comparisons are as follows:
Velocity . . . . . . . . . Muzzle . . . . 100yds . . . . .200yds . . . . . 300yds . . . . 400yds
30-30 (30 WCF) . . . . 2,390 . . . . 2,024 . . . . . . 1,701 . . . . . . 1,421 . . . . . 1,202
.308 Winchester . . . . 2,820 . . . . 2,568 . . . . . . 2,337 . . . . . . 2,119 . . . . . 1,912
What started as an 18% velocity increase for the .308 at the muzzle translates to a 59% increase at 400yds.
Overall the 308 is far better round but you are also into an issue of accuracy target shooting vs the caliber and rifle choice.
For pure target shooting the 243 and 308 are very accurate rounds
both guys express interesting in the Axis, but you need to weigh which way to go.
Two very good choices but heavy for hunting are the Cabells only 12VR which I think can be had in 223, 243 and 308. 26 inch heavy barrel.
Both have the Accutrigger which I think is as good as it gets including Timny .
More woods oriented but still heavy barrel and heavy to carry (10 lbs roughly) is the Cabala only 10T. Comes only in 308 and 24 inch barrel, (box magazine, rails scope or sight mount, nice stock) A better woods gun but not as handy as a short lever action for brush work or a lot of carry9ing.
Both can be had on sale for under $400 which is a major buy (scope and rings not included of course as in some Axis packages)
I am just getting into shooting the 12VR and its accurate. Better than I can shoot I think. 1 inch groups and smaller (5 shots) on regular basis.
Ruger with the American is also supposedly a good shooter in a light package without the heavy barrel. Not sure if you can do 5 shot groups with it but 3 shot groups and 1 inch or better have been reported with that.
For pure target shooting the 243 and 308 are very accurate rounds
both guys express interesting in the Axis, but you need to weigh which way to go.
Two very good choices but heavy for hunting are the Cabells only 12VR which I think can be had in 223, 243 and 308. 26 inch heavy barrel.
Both have the Accutrigger which I think is as good as it gets including Timny .
More woods oriented but still heavy barrel and heavy to carry (10 lbs roughly) is the Cabala only 10T. Comes only in 308 and 24 inch barrel, (box magazine, rails scope or sight mount, nice stock) A better woods gun but not as handy as a short lever action for brush work or a lot of carry9ing.
Both can be had on sale for under $400 which is a major buy (scope and rings not included of course as in some Axis packages)
I am just getting into shooting the 12VR and its accurate. Better than I can shoot I think. 1 inch groups and smaller (5 shots) on regular basis.
Ruger with the American is also supposedly a good shooter in a light package without the heavy barrel. Not sure if you can do 5 shot groups with it but 3 shot groups and 1 inch or better have been reported with that.
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