3 Texas men terror plot foiled.
- Thread starter ccwolff
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JuanCarlos
New member
BigBlue said:
At which point did he say he wouldn't sacrifice his own? I thought he was pretty clear that he would rather die than sacrifice his freedoms...and with the way terrorists target random civilians, that could well happen.
So yeah.
BigBlue said:
Also, with this use of the internment of the Japanese during WWII to defend this new bigotry just helps make my point for me. I know of few reasonable people who still defend that act. In fact...
From Wikipedia:
That bolded part seems eerily familiar nowadays. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
[EDIT: Seriously, I don't think I've ever heard the internment of the Japanese used as a defense for actions taken for our government...but rather always as a cautionary example of what we shouldn't do again. One of us fails at being an American, and I find myself hoping to God it isn't me...]
azredhawk44
Moderator
JuanCarlos:
Or, you need the battery removed from the backing of the phone to remove the screws, in order to attach your wiring harness to the phone's speaker. Removing the screws would be done on a workbench so you don't lose them later on, but taking the batteries off would save your electrical technicians valuable time when talking about 1000 phones.
Think about it - If you're going to buy a black market phone for over-retail price, do you want one that is not in its packaging and may have been tampered with?
Kelly J,
I applaude your attempt to educate this group and your insight on this issue, but I fear however that you are fighting an up hill battle. The one really funny thing about all of this is that both ends of the political spectrum seem to want the same thing. The left wants and end to profiling simply because they'd rather see us lose our country than for them to lose another election. On the other hand, the extreme right wants an end to profiling because they fear a temporary loss of their rights more than the loss of innocent lives. While I would normally join those on the right in most political discussions, I can see the need for a tool such as profiling when it's obviously working and preventing further loss of American lives. Allowing woman and children to die at the hands of Islamic Facists just doesn't seem to be a sign of bravery or patriotism to me. If stopping the deaths of our citizens at the hands of terrorists is a cowardly thing, then I'd be proud to wear that moniker. I am not impressed by people that would allow others to die while they stand around puffing up their chests and proclaiming their own patriotism. Sounds too much like Kerry for my liking.
Don
I applaude your attempt to educate this group and your insight on this issue, but I fear however that you are fighting an up hill battle. The one really funny thing about all of this is that both ends of the political spectrum seem to want the same thing. The left wants and end to profiling simply because they'd rather see us lose our country than for them to lose another election. On the other hand, the extreme right wants an end to profiling because they fear a temporary loss of their rights more than the loss of innocent lives. While I would normally join those on the right in most political discussions, I can see the need for a tool such as profiling when it's obviously working and preventing further loss of American lives. Allowing woman and children to die at the hands of Islamic Facists just doesn't seem to be a sign of bravery or patriotism to me. If stopping the deaths of our citizens at the hands of terrorists is a cowardly thing, then I'd be proud to wear that moniker. I am not impressed by people that would allow others to die while they stand around puffing up their chests and proclaiming their own patriotism. Sounds too much like Kerry for my liking.
Don
JuanCarlos
New member
I can see where you're coming from...to an extent. I'm not that intimitely familiar with this business practice, so I'll drop it for now. However, I'll note that this act would not seem terribly suspicious at all if carried out by a white, Asian, or Latino individual*...so again we're back to what (in my opinion) constitutes unreasonable use of profiling. You're arresting them for the ethnicity, not the act. The fact that the federal terrorism charges were dropped in a New York minute says something to me.
* - This is, of course, debateable...but seeing as no non-Arab suspects have been brought in for this, I feel comfortable stating it as being "incredibly likely."
MeekAndMild
New member
JuanCarlos, I know that I'm flogging a dead horse here but how many latinos, gabachos et cetera have you seen ranting about killing the last Jew in Israel, blowing up thousand year old Buddhist statues in Afghanistan, blowing up trains in Spain or cutting off people's heads? Should we strip search every abuelita who buys cell phones for the children to prove we're not prejudiced?
Juan Carlos,
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBlue
Lives which you seem all too willing to sacrifice as long as it isn't yours.
If he would rather die, then by all means let him do so. In all honesty it's an out and out lie. What exactly did he do to stop the government from taking away his rights in this case? Storm Congress, refuse to pay his income tax, or did he just post a few inane opinions here? Wow, now I can understand your definition of a patriot. I can see a new holiday coming up in his honor. Let's be honest, I seriously doubt either of you as much as wrote to your Representatives.
As for you, if you really feel the need to be his cheerleader, please do us all favor and slap on a skirt, get yourself some pom poms and entertain us all. I doubt you have the legs for it, but you sure do seem to want to do it badly enough. Gee, I hope I didn't just give away your plans for Saturday night?
Don
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBlue
Lives which you seem all too willing to sacrifice as long as it isn't yours.
If he would rather die, then by all means let him do so. In all honesty it's an out and out lie. What exactly did he do to stop the government from taking away his rights in this case? Storm Congress, refuse to pay his income tax, or did he just post a few inane opinions here? Wow, now I can understand your definition of a patriot. I can see a new holiday coming up in his honor. Let's be honest, I seriously doubt either of you as much as wrote to your Representatives.
As for you, if you really feel the need to be his cheerleader, please do us all favor and slap on a skirt, get yourself some pom poms and entertain us all. I doubt you have the legs for it, but you sure do seem to want to do it badly enough. Gee, I hope I didn't just give away your plans for Saturday night?
Don
Marko Kloos
Inactive
Is there anything about "no ad-hominem attacks" that I need to translate or clarify for anyone?
If fighting against the ever increasing power of the .gov makes me a bleeding-heart for the islamoterrorists then feel free to call me osama.
As far as the Japanese internment goes, it was wrong, plain and simple for anyone to even attempt to justify it sickens me. They WERE American citizens, and not the only group that was rounded up btw. However many WHITE American citizens lives MAY have been saved by the internments, it does not compare to the ACTUAL number of lives of American lives that the .gov destroyed by its actions. History will repeat its self it seems...
If this is the direction that conservatism is going to take this country, then they can do it with out my vote and with me protesting it for the entire trip!
I have always been disgusted by the internment of the Japanese during WWII (another reason to detest FDR).
But as you point out, they were American citizens.
Many of the islamoterrorists we must now deal with are not. We are talking about people who have slipped through the cracks of our porous immigration policies. People here on visas who simply disappear and are who-knows-where long after the expiration of those visas.
Protect American citizens from loss of their human, civil and constitutional rights? You betcha! Protect illegal aliens? Sorry, nope. Screw 'em.
-azurefly
But as you point out, they were American citizens.
Many of the islamoterrorists we must now deal with are not. We are talking about people who have slipped through the cracks of our porous immigration policies. People here on visas who simply disappear and are who-knows-where long after the expiration of those visas.
Protect American citizens from loss of their human, civil and constitutional rights? You betcha! Protect illegal aliens? Sorry, nope. Screw 'em.
-azurefly
Did I miss some thing in this story?
Was it found out that the three were "foreign" or "illegal"?
If it was could some one please post a link or something?
All I found was this "Three Palestinian-American men..."
http://www.cellular-news.com/story/18879.php
Sounds like they were/are American to me.
And it also sounds like they were/are treated as if they were not.
"conspiracy to defraud consumers and telephone providers by trafficking in counterfeit goods. They also were charged with money laundering on suspicion that they used proceeds from the counterfeit cell phone transactions to buy more phones."
Gotta get them for something I guess...
It is becoming more and more apparent who the real "terrorists" are in this country and who their supporters are in this forum.
Was it found out that the three were "foreign" or "illegal"?
If it was could some one please post a link or something?
All I found was this "Three Palestinian-American men..."
http://www.cellular-news.com/story/18879.php
Sounds like they were/are American to me.
And it also sounds like they were/are treated as if they were not.
"conspiracy to defraud consumers and telephone providers by trafficking in counterfeit goods. They also were charged with money laundering on suspicion that they used proceeds from the counterfeit cell phone transactions to buy more phones."
Gotta get them for something I guess...
It is becoming more and more apparent who the real "terrorists" are in this country and who their supporters are in this forum.
I see that my response has already been covered, so let's see if we can take a different approach...
You guys are stating or implying that:
#1 These terrorists are capable of destroying our country.
#2 These terrorists will stop at nothing to kill us all.
#3 It's impossible to fight terrorism without violating the law and Constitution.
Does that about sum it up? If so, I would appreciate at least a little supporting evidence, as these claims have already been thoroughly and repeatedly debunked in this thread and others.
As an aside, I've never been accused of being a part of the radical right on this forum before. It's kinda amusing....
You guys are stating or implying that:
#1 These terrorists are capable of destroying our country.
#2 These terrorists will stop at nothing to kill us all.
#3 It's impossible to fight terrorism without violating the law and Constitution.
Does that about sum it up? If so, I would appreciate at least a little supporting evidence, as these claims have already been thoroughly and repeatedly debunked in this thread and others.
As an aside, I've never been accused of being a part of the radical right on this forum before. It's kinda amusing....
MeekAndMild
New member
That's a pretty profound quote.
I sometimes wonder if some of the struggle on this board is the natural result of the failure of historians to actually teach history. Flip through any American history textbook written for children any time in the last 200 years or go visit any national historic site and you'll see one slant or another. Too bad we're not arguing about the War of 1812 or the Jackson's invasion of Spanish Florida bacause those wars formed the way the US has dealt with threats for nearly 200 years. Too bad we're not arguing about the way New York newspapers covered Boss Tweed and Tammany Hall because those same stories have come back using new names and faces.
Forty thousand dollars worth of cell phones is something that draws attention, maybe not the same way that wearing underwear on your head and dancing otherwise naked on the street smoking a huge Cheech and Chong style joint, but nevertheless attention. It is unfortunate that the people who thrive on storytelling spun this yarn into something bigger but people do tell stories. Telling stories about the 50,000 Islamo-Non-Fascists who each bought one cell phone just doesn't sell the newspapers.
If there is one fact of life seen thousands of times in our history it is that lumps in the American melting pot are either absorbed or smashed. It really doesn't matter if those lumps are Nigerian royalty or Irish commoner or whatever they can't remain what they were and succeed in becoming American unless they buy in to at least some of the commonality.
Should we form a lump protection society? While we're saving Islamofascism from the bad old government how about a fund to protect Hip-Hop culture from backlash by insensitive parents? How about a "Save the Klan" telathon? After all only a tiny minority of Hip-Hoppers or Klansmen actually do those groups' notorious crimes and all the rest of these rich black boys and toothless white trash are being discriminated against by association.
Oh my! He called the Klan toothless white trash and I remember that once he said criminal organizations like the Klan shouldn't be allowed free speech. Help! Mr. Moderator! He's doing that hominy thing!
(Edited to mention that last paragraph wasn't me. I was channeling my mother's weinerdog, Rusty. He is a staunch libertarian and a little bit hot tempered.)
Redworm,
Are you actually reading these posts or just attempting to translate them? While I used the phrase "afraid or your own government", you translate it into "trusting the government". Is that just a mistake on your part or do you believe them to be one and the same? Then again I would guess that it just better suits your agenda to have my words changed to your liking. I can't wait to see what I really said this time!
Don
Are you actually reading these posts or just attempting to translate them? While I used the phrase "afraid or your own government", you translate it into "trusting the government". Is that just a mistake on your part or do you believe them to be one and the same? Then again I would guess that it just better suits your agenda to have my words changed to your liking. I can't wait to see what I really said this time!
Don
Bigblue, you're misreading his post. Particularly as a gun owner, you should realize, based on historical evidence, that the government is a danger even to law-abiding citizens.
The problem with profiling is that Law Enforcement ends up going too far based on mere speculation about possible crimes. Before someone is arrested, there must be probable cause to suspect they've committed a particular crime. "Possession of lots of cell phones while Arab" is not probable cause.
You also mention that suspension of civil liberties during wars is nothing new. What war are we fighting, when will it end, and who is the enemy? It seems to me that this war is an ideological war, it will not end for a long time, and the enemy is anyone who shares a radical Islamic ideology. That is not easily detected.
In an ideal world we could find all the murderous radicals and eliminate them. In reality, the best course of action seems to be to keep them from getting quite so pissed off that they travel across the Atlantic just to blow themselves up.
Profiling that, in this case, seems to have sent a few innocent Arab-americans to jail for trying to make money reselling cell phones.
The problem with profiling is that Law Enforcement ends up going too far based on mere speculation about possible crimes. Before someone is arrested, there must be probable cause to suspect they've committed a particular crime. "Possession of lots of cell phones while Arab" is not probable cause.
You also mention that suspension of civil liberties during wars is nothing new. What war are we fighting, when will it end, and who is the enemy? It seems to me that this war is an ideological war, it will not end for a long time, and the enemy is anyone who shares a radical Islamic ideology. That is not easily detected.
In an ideal world we could find all the murderous radicals and eliminate them. In reality, the best course of action seems to be to keep them from getting quite so pissed off that they travel across the Atlantic just to blow themselves up.
Maybe I misinterpreted what you said. If you're not concerned with the power that your government has then are you not placing all your trust in it? Do you believe that no one should be afraid of our government and the possibility of it having more power than the people it's supposed to serve?