3-D Printers
- Thread starter Smit
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even the highest quality plastic autos use reingforceing steel/aluminum alloy internal skeletons for strength and durability.
the cost to do it right is way way out of the average person. the poeple who could afford to do it, are in the income bracket that is taking guns away from us..
the cost to do it right is way way out of the average person. the poeple who could afford to do it, are in the income bracket that is taking guns away from us..
steveNChunter
New member
Maybe the next invention will be a 3D printer with time machine capability that can print me out an original NIB Colt Peacemaker! 
Justice06RR
New member
A vhs or printer is not the same as a quality 3D printer or CNC machine. An ink printer is not meant to produce sturdy products, and a vhs doesn't even print anything. A $10,000+ CNC machine will not come down in price to $2k or even $500 where your average joe can afford to buy one.
I think that is beside the point anyway. The issue is making durable products that will last more than just a few rounds. Even more important is that barrels, slides, and springs need to be made from steel or aluminum--not plastic or polymer. I would not want to have to replace a broken gun/part every few rounds anyway; that is just not reasonable
As far as the benefits of 3D printing goes, they are probably limited to magazines and lower receivers only.
Some of you are missing the point. Can you name a technology that hasn't improved over time? Or mass produced items that increase in price? Just cause you can't do it now, doesnt mean you won't be able to in the future. When was the last time you took a stroll through Lockheed Martin's R&D department?
Also, the point that a firearm won't last as long as metal hasn't much to do with this dicussion. Sure, it won't last AS long, but work it will.
Also, the point that a firearm won't last as long as metal hasn't much to do with this dicussion. Sure, it won't last AS long, but work it will.
I know that this technology is the new up and coming scare tactic for the media. Regardless of the improvements this will have over the years, you will still be only able to make parts that have no real stress on them. Look at the AR-15 someone put together. They still had to use a complete metal upper. The receiver that is printed lasted only a handful of rounds. Finally broke at the buffer tube. Image a 1911 frame, it does have a bearing surface and alot of force acting upon it. Try that with plastic. The AR-15 was the easiest to make, as it really has no force acting upon it, except by the buffer tube where it broke. And without metal internals and a metal upper, it would never function.
The technology will get better. But we would need super huge advances in polymer science to be able to make a part with the strength needed to be a bearing surface or any type of internal mechanism,ie hammer, firing pin or such. Perhaps still in my lifetime, but I would think ray guns would become more pactical before this tech can produce a complete firearm for a relatively low price that anyone can afford to put in the basement workshop. All this just IMHO.
The technology will get better. But we would need super huge advances in polymer science to be able to make a part with the strength needed to be a bearing surface or any type of internal mechanism,ie hammer, firing pin or such. Perhaps still in my lifetime, but I would think ray guns would become more pactical before this tech can produce a complete firearm for a relatively low price that anyone can afford to put in the basement workshop. All this just IMHO.
ScottRiqui
New member
There's nothing wrong with being excited about new technology, but the simple fact is that these 3-D printers aren't really game-changers when it comes to manufacturing gun parts. There are some neat things that 3-D printers can do that current CNC equipment can't (like forming fully-enclosed internal voids in a part), but that's neither here nor there.
3-D printers certainly don't require any new laws to address their use, even though I'm certain that some politicians are champing at the bit to do just that.
If we want to avoid government interference, we need to be realistic about what these printers can and can't do, both currently, and in the near-to-middle future, and make sure that people don't have unrealistic expectations.
We need to make sure people know that this isn't "Star Trek" replicator technology, and that people aren't able to tell their computers to "print a gun" and have it spit out a functioning firearm, because I promise you that's the impression that some people already have.
Just one more thing for the antis to want to ban. They already have draft proposals to require licenses for machinery and tools capable of making guns. A federal license would be required to open a machine shop and only licensed machine shops would be authorized to buy lathes, milling machines, etc. They would also have to keep records of all jobs, with photos of the work and ID of the customer.
See, and you home workshop guys thought you could escape the all-seeing eye of Uncle Sam! No way.
Jim
See, and you home workshop guys thought you could escape the all-seeing eye of Uncle Sam! No way.
Jim
3D printers are getting some play nowdays for a couple of reasons. One is cuz any tech aspect thing gets play as a way to pump up investments and buoy confidence in the market. "A new revolution" of "distributed manufacturing".
Googles new "Google vision" eyeglasses are an example. How exciting! I can play a video game, check my ETrade investments and drive down a crowded street all through my eyeglasses. The tech folk get hecka excited at all the possible applications...night vision for example. Investments roll in. Speculative articles are written. The usual rah! rah!
Same with the 3D. It can be very useful for sending working scale or life size models of parts and designs across long distances rather than simply a print of the same.
Folks are already building AR lowers...
http://hackaday.com/2012/07/26/3d-printed-ar-15-lower-works/
These will soon be regulated and taxed.
The large scale usefulness of these though will be in home production of small gadgets for small business. As in parts for bracelets, dolls, trinkets, etc.
The cost per unit made will be higher than production plants with injection molding equipment, etc. but if the scale of production is smaller due to niche parts than there can be a return on the investment.
The other niche they will serve is in piece work. Bosses will quickly discover that they can rent a machine to a worker and then pay them by the amount of pieces they make in their garages. The worker does not need the skill of the machinist and the boss assumes no risks or overhead.
Brave new world!
tipoc
Googles new "Google vision" eyeglasses are an example. How exciting! I can play a video game, check my ETrade investments and drive down a crowded street all through my eyeglasses. The tech folk get hecka excited at all the possible applications...night vision for example. Investments roll in. Speculative articles are written. The usual rah! rah!
Same with the 3D. It can be very useful for sending working scale or life size models of parts and designs across long distances rather than simply a print of the same.
Folks are already building AR lowers...
http://hackaday.com/2012/07/26/3d-printed-ar-15-lower-works/
These will soon be regulated and taxed.
The large scale usefulness of these though will be in home production of small gadgets for small business. As in parts for bracelets, dolls, trinkets, etc.
The cost per unit made will be higher than production plants with injection molding equipment, etc. but if the scale of production is smaller due to niche parts than there can be a return on the investment.
The other niche they will serve is in piece work. Bosses will quickly discover that they can rent a machine to a worker and then pay them by the amount of pieces they make in their garages. The worker does not need the skill of the machinist and the boss assumes no risks or overhead.
Brave new world!
tipoc
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Printed AR mag with working printed spring--5 round mag IIRC
1st, how is that a detriment compared with any other method, and 2nd:
Let me know when you find a way to make that assembly by machining or casting. RP will allow the printing of a complete, assembled FCG in time.
Of course RP has potential. It is a better method for making one-off parts in darn near every way except for material strength. Recall we once made guns out of brass and iron. Of course RP materials will get better.
Maybe someday we'll have non-lethal guns that shoot electricity and the means to speak remotely with a hand-held device
TCB
I'm unfamiliar with the terms RP or FCG. Have no idea.
The tech has potential in industry. The medical field for example.
This is true. I'd just add "some" one off parts. At present the process is slow and faces the inherent limitations of the materials that the model is being made of. It can't make a part faster than the material allows.
It can't make a spring of plastic or cintered metal that has the same properties as spring steel.
But it doesn't need to either. That's not the strength of the tech. Steel springs are plentiful and inexpensive. The potential here is to make small numbers of otherwise quite expensive things in a factory or shop or small numbers of cheap complex things in a persons garage.
But it is still relatively new tech (15 years or so) and is in the developmental stage.
Can you make a gun out of it? Not right now. Parts of some guns maybe. It's still cheaper to just go buy one. You can make a zip gun for a lot less than the cost of a 3D printer.
tipoc
IRCC? Does that mean you haven't seen it? You haven't seen it work?
Do you have pics of an actual working firearm using printed springs?
I can make a "spring" by coiling up a strip of cardboard. That doesn't make it useful as a gun spring.
And that spinning thing doesn't have anywhere near the close tolerances needed in a working gun.
Printed guns are currently fiction. Maybe someday, in fact I'd invest money in a company that I thought could do it. But no one has done it yet.
Forgive my TLAs (three letter acronyms):
RP-Rapid Prototyping
(subtypes; FDM=melted plastic addition; SLA=UV laser cured epoxy resin)
FCG-Fire Control Group (trigger, sear, disconnector,hammer, safety, their pivots, and housing)
CYA-cover your...we all know this one already
Of course I haven't
. Like many things we "hear" about, I heard about it and passed it along. It was on Thingiverse (now purged of gun stuff 
) and, yes, mostly served as a "concept" of what a 100% mag looks like. However, it worked well enough the designer exluded it from his file release as a CYA so he wouldn't end up in the papers if some killer used his magazine. (Not very trusting of the gun-owning public, is he?)The current RP designs are facsimilies of older metallic forms, and are therfore doomed to failure. But plastic has a modulus and yield point, therefore a functioning spring can be made. Yes, it will be huge (and short lived) compared to a steel leaf spring. But that's not the point of the guy's excercise. It's a working spring, a working follower, and a working mag-body with feed lips. They don't work well yet, but the concept is sound, the design will improve, and the current issues and shortcomings will be addressed. That's innovation. I can already see someone trying to epoxy some fiberglass tape to the spring to make it truly functional.
Upper portion of an Eiffel Tower model made on the Form 1
. Though they may not be ready for all firearms applications just yet (though I still think that will change soon), makers of table-top game pieces are on notice The Form 1 printer by Formlabs is spec'ed at 10 microns for accuracy--tight enough for a finish as smooth as injection moulding. Tight enough that the similiarly-made (SLA) AR lower made by Distributed Defense that's shot 600 rounds (so far with no wear) needed no thread-chasing on the formed threaded holes.
Tolerance aside, the thing that spinning toy impresses me the most with is that there is no other way to make it. (I also saw in a still-photo that the spheres aren't loose; each layer rotates on pin-bushings mounted on the next layer.) Just think of all the new design possibilities that open up when you can form additively like this! Intricate, high-tolerance details suddenly become as easy/cheap to make as a planar face!
Back in school, professors/students were constantly printing assembled mechanisms (gears and stuff for optics gimbals they were designing, if memory serves). My rockets design class even used a FDM-formed dowel to mould the inner combustion chamber cavity of our solid fuel plug*. The star-shaped piece was stout enough to be pushed out of a 6" long block of adhered wax/polymer mixture by a press. The stuff's plenty tough, but the layers are bonded to each other very weakly, making it bad for tension. SLA is much better for that.
That's true, but it's not fair to claim it can't be done until it finally is, either. Honestly, I really hope no one does make a poly-gun until this current ban-storm passes, because many folks get real reactionary when ordinary citizens are empowered to do stuff for themselves. I'm saving up for a Form 1 because I want to invest in a small, new, American company that I think has the potential to market a prototyper that can actually do some things, and will only get better with development. And at a price point that approaches affordable for many people. And because I think it has a place in producing (even now) functional parts for firearms and tons of other uses (like 922r compliance parts for my obscure-as-all-get-out Stgw57 build).
TCB
*nifty engine test videos; ignition at the minute mark for both
Engine test 1
Engine test 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tAW72Y_XPF4
An AR printed lower. Link from the general discussion forum.
An AR printed lower. Link from the general discussion forum.
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So why would anyone want a plastic lower? I work plastics daily. There are no plastics that can compete with metals across the board. Some take heat up to aaround 1100f, some are inert, some are light, wear resistant or pliable.
You could invest in a $100k+ mold and make lowers from glass or fiber reinforced nylon like glock or H&K, etc.. Price would go down after the first 50000 or so pieces were sold.
Anybody with a CNC mill and some machining knowledge can download 3-D solids of AR lowers and run them out of 7075 Alum properly. Could be worth while at a few hundred pieces.
The problem with part is getting a proper FFl to manufacture. If your looking to have one to use for criminal purposes you certainly wouldnt go through the trouble. Just go steel one.
Printed lowers are a novelty at best.
You could invest in a $100k+ mold and make lowers from glass or fiber reinforced nylon like glock or H&K, etc.. Price would go down after the first 50000 or so pieces were sold.
Anybody with a CNC mill and some machining knowledge can download 3-D solids of AR lowers and run them out of 7075 Alum properly. Could be worth while at a few hundred pieces.
The problem with part is getting a proper FFl to manufacture. If your looking to have one to use for criminal purposes you certainly wouldnt go through the trouble. Just go steel one.
Printed lowers are a novelty at best.
3D printers are going to become more and more prominent as technology improves. They're already working on models that can print metal and (more interestingly, IMO) living cells/flesh.
Personally I can't wait for the day when there's a 3D printer in every home.
Mr. Kalashnikov might have some input about how well firearms can work when made without ultra close tolerances.
Personally I can't wait for the day when there's a 3D printer in every home.
Mr. Kalashnikov might have some input about how well firearms can work when made without ultra close tolerances.