2nd Amendment Regulation

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The only good thing about the NFA tax is that it has never been raised

To adjust for inflation.

I do not think a menial $200 stamp should affect anything

That "menial" $200 tax was $200 in 1934. More than the cost of the weapons taxed, sometimes by a huge amount. The entire reason for the tax is to price these items out of the range of ordinary working class citizens. Only wealthy people can afford $15,000 to $40,000 for a gun that you are not allowed to hunt with, and has very little legal use except for entertainment. Federal laws have ensured that the cost to a private citizen is virtually prohibitive. While you may not consider this an infringement on our rights, how should we look at it when because of Federal Law two consecutive serial numbered guns, one on the civilian register and one not can have a cost difference of thousands of dollars. Take two identical SMGs, one legal for private sale and one restricted to law enforcement (because it is not on the civilian register). The civilian legal gun can cost $10, 15, even $20,000 or more, plus the $200 every time ownership is transferred. The law enforcement only gun costs a few hundred. Talk about an LEO discount!

Every time an NFA weapon is sold, the price goes up at least $200, due to the federal tax. If the gun changes hands 5 times in 20 years, that is a $1,000 increase in the price, just to cover the cost of the taxes that have been paid for the privilege of legal ownership. And some guns have been in the registry since 1934.

Here on this board, we have a number of people who would like to be able to own a full auto weapon, and who live in locals that do not prohibit it outright. But they are prevented from legally doing so by the excessive cost. A cost which is entirely due to the Federal laws manipulating the market. Full auto enthusiasts have always been the smallest segment of firearms owners, declining since 1934, and reaching a maximum fixed number in 1986, simply because there can be no more guns added to the civilian registry. One cannot make a new machinegun and add it to the registry, this is no longer allowed. One cannot find an old machinegun that was never registered, register it, pay the tax and have it be made legal to own. This is not allowed either. So, since the number of legal guns is fixed, and no more can be added, the price has skyrocketed in the past 22 years, well above the "regular" rate of incrrease caused by the constant addition of $200 every time they weapon changes hands.

An actual AK 47 assault rifle (the real one, the selective fire one) is legally a machinegun under US law, and while one can be purchased in many third world countries for $150 or even less, there are only a handful in the civilian registry, and their cost is more than the cost of an economy car. And there is no GMAC or Ford Credit to aid in the purchase.

Artificially causing the price of something to increase beyond the means of working class people may not technically be "infringement", but it sure looks like somebodys don't want most folks to be able to buy them from where I sit.

Another factor is the fact that owners of and dealers in NFA weapons are not very active in trying to repeal the NFA, or the '86 freeze. Very human, I can easily understand why. If I owned a gun worth $40,000, I wouldn't actively seek to change the law to one that would make it worth only $1,000.

While we do believe the 2nd Amendment means what it says, and that machineguns are protected weapons and should be available to ordinary citizens (at a cost reflective of their material, manufacture and a fair profit, like any other item), we understand that since 1934 reality has been quite different.
 
I'm going to say this again Tennessee and Yukon - the defacto ban on automatic rifles is clearly a violation of the 2nd Amendment IMHO.

I have absolutely no problem with law abiding citizens owning automatic rifles for example. Ordnance, sorry, I have little problem with banning cannons, etc.

If an invader or tyrant became a real threat to our way of life, they would come at us with automatic firearms. (I know this is a nightmare scenario and most likely not to happen because of the 2nd Amendment but it is not impossible IMHO.)

Nothing in the 2nd Amendment says we can be forbidden to own those arms. The 1934 NFA and, more importantly IMHO, the 1986 defacto ban clearly violates the 2nd Amendment.

Tennessee and Yukon, despite your agreeing with bans on automatic rifles, you WILL see cases in the future seeking to repeal the 1986 defacto ban IMHO. I think that is a good thing for the overall safety and freedom of the country.

You disagree and I understand why - they are "too dangerous" in your opinions but they were only regulated and taxed heavily because gangsters of the 1920's were using them for nefarious reasons. This has nothing to do with banning them outright like the defacto ban of 1986. The 1986 ban, and arguably the 1934 NFA, violates the 2nd Amendment. I'd love to hear your legal arguments showing the contrary. (I mainly rely on the Miller decision for my side.)

I mean, why in the world should we allow only the military, police or invaders to own automatic rifles for example?

Maybe we should all wait for Heller?:)

Edit: Yukon, I just read this post or yours more closely:

Anti's can say I have no need for guns and I can honestly admit that I really don't. I have about 20 firearms right now and can say that I don't NEED any of them. I enjoy shooting and hunting, its fun and gets me outside with my buddies. I am not paranoid, I do not think people are coming to get me and that I always need to be carrying, being a reasonable person I find the people who put guns in their bathrooms laughable...look at the statistics of people who actually get in gun fights and you will see what I mean. Not that I would give them up willingly but I am not going to disobey the law. I don't NEED guns, but they sure are fun.

I guess if you don't like Americas gun laws you can either try to change them, live with them or leave. Since no other country has gun laws like here leaving is stupid so either change them or live with them. I am quite happy with the way things are run right now so I can just sit back and watch.

You do realize that you are really anti-gun don't you?
 
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Fight all you want to on this board. The NFA ain't going away in your lifetime and in my opinion there are far more worthy things to fight for than civilians owning full auto and explosive military weapons (the reference equating slavery with full auto regulation is far out and almost offensive).

Interesting debate. Same stuff pretty much I have heard before. However, as Alan Gura said, outside of the gun community (and I think the extreme end of it) there is no public support for the unrestricted ownership of full auto and other pure military weapons.

For myself and I feel, many others who own and love guns, you will get no support on that issue. Nothing any of you have said have made me change my mind and I suspect it is true for others who are lurking and don't want to put up with the sophistry. As I said before, better find out what you have in common with most gun owners and fight for what you can win. Unrestricted ownership of all types of military weapons won't and shouldn't happen.

That last sentence is your opinion. I would like to find common ground with gun owners, not gun controllers. I would like to push forward and educate the public that law abiding gun owners are not a threat to the public safety at large. We disagree on that. So be it. I will continue to struggle for my rights and the rights of other gun owners who believe as I do. That may not be that many for now, but who knows what can happen if you stick to your principles and stay within the law as you fight. I'm no radical who believes in "NO GUN LAWS" or in anarchy. I just feel that the gun control laws as they exist today, have gone too far. Us gunowners have been making progress in many areas, but there are still laws, in my opinion that need to be changed. That doesn't mean I don't fight against other laws, such as handgun bans and assault weapons bans. We fight along side each other in those areas TG.

I will continue to fight on this board, other boards and with my vote selections. I may not see the NFA go away in my lifetime. Maybe one of my kids will. Freedom is about more than today. It's something bigger than one's self. I don't see any problem with relating slavery to the ownership of full auto weapons in the context we are using here. They are both about freedom and the fact that many people in the US saw no "NEED" for blacks to have freedom in this country. There were many who probably told blacks that they'd never see freedom in their lifetimes. Still, because those slaves had the spirit of freedom burning within their souls, they didn't listen to the nay sayers, who told them they'd never be free and actively worked against their freedom. They pushed on, as hopeless as their struggle seemed at the time.

There were many people in colonial times who warned that we could never beat the powerful British military and that to even try would be suicide. They said we should just go along to get along. Thank God for people like our founding fathers.

For TG and Yukon, if you see no need for full auto weapons, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. For now, you have the law on your side, and the USSC may well be on your side as well. I understand how this gives your arguement legitimacy. My point was that at one time, the laws and the USSC also sided with slavery as being an acceptable condition in America. So the people who wanted to keep slavery had legitimacy at that point in time. But times change, and so do people's attitudes. Some of us are actively working to change the public attitude that full auto firearms are not any more dangerous than semiauto firearms or any firearms, so long as those firearms are in the hands of normally law abiding citizens.

We have had to work very hard to educate the public that "assault weapons" are no more dangerous than normal semiautomatic firearms. They just look different. The anti's even tried to smear the difference between full auto and "assault weapons" which are semiauto. They figured the confusion for the uneducated public between full and semi auto would make it easier to ban a whole new class of weapons, that being semiauto firearms that "look" like select fire firearms. One of the leaders of the anti gun movement made such a statement publicly. I can't remember if it was Dennis Hennigan or Josh Sugarman. I believe it was Sugarman, but I can't recall for sure. If you poll the public, I would guess that a majority would accept a ban on assault weapons. Thus, there isn't much public support for assault weapons in civilian hands. There's some gun owners who support the private ownership of assault weapons, but many gun owners say we don't NEED those and they should be banned. Many gun owners say that you don't need an assault weapon for hunting or self defense, when a shotgun or deer rifle would be adequate. Why do you think democrats like John Kerry make statements such as "I support the right to hunt and target shoot, but if you want an assault weapon, we have place for you, and that's the US military, and we welcome you." That's a paraphrase, but it's essentially what he said when he left the campaign trail specifically to return to the Senate and vote for an extension of the AWB. He made a public speech from the floor of the Senate.

So, by going down this path that no one needs to have full auto, you give the anti's a victory, because they believe that no one "needs" any gun. They won't go for them all at once, but one piece at a time. Just like Johnny Cash stealing that car from his employer.

Yukon already admitted that he doesn't "need" any guns. As other posters have pointed out, once the government gets to decide what you can or can't have based upon what THEY think you NEED, freedom is on the threshold of collapse.

I can't argue that the laws as they exist today find me on the winning side. But the struggle is not over yet. It never is. Governments will try to eliminate any struggles against them. That is the nature of government. This is why tyrannical governments always take away firearms. We are not at that tipping point yet, so we get to have these spirited debates and can continue the struggle as we see fit, within the law. I wouldn't "illegally" purchase a select fire firearm. But I will continue to try and educate as many people as I can that select fire firearms should be protected for civilian use just as semiauto firearms that look "military" in design, should be. I may never see it in my lifetime, but maybe someday in the future, some americans will. I have hope, even though I'd never vote for a rube like Obama.
 
I'm no radical who believes in "NO GUN LAWS" or in anarchy.
Prior to 1934, there WERE NO GUN LAWS in the US. (At least, except for the racist Jim Crow laws.)

Did we have "anarchy" back then? No? Then what makes you think that "no gun laws" has anything even remotely to do with anarchy?
 
As for the NFA of 34, let's assume that we can't get that turned over and the law remains that one must undergo a thorough colonoscopy, er, I mean background check and pay a $200.00 transfer fee. Let's say we accept that. Isn't that supposed to ensure that only the law abiding have full auto weapons? Yukon seems OK with this as he says we can still own full autos if we pay the money, do the paperwork, submit our fingerprints, and undergo a complete and thorough background check. Once all that has happened, why can't we own a select fire firearm that was manufactured after 1986? How does that make any sense? If all select fire firearms were still available, they'd be a lot less expensive and more people would own them. They would then be found to be "in common use", at least much more so than they are today. I would first like to see the 86 ban fall. After all, if the public can own some full autos made or imported before 86, why can't we own full autos made or imported in 1987? That seems very "unreasonable" to me. I think there is room for movement in that area.

If we can fell the 86 ban, then we can work on the tax and fingerprint requirements of the NFA. I begrudgingly accept an instant background check for all firearms, and that should be good enough for all firearms including select fire, so long as it's not turned into a gun registration scheme.
 
Prior to 1934, there WERE NO GUN LAWS in the US. (At least, except for the racist Jim Crow laws.)

Did we have "anarchy" back then? No? Then what makes you think that "no gun laws" has anything even remotely to do with anarchy?

I don't believe that. However, you often hear the two linked by the anti gunners, who say " I suppose you believe in no gun laws and anarchy". I was trying to pre empt that line of arguement, that's all.

What gun laws do I believe in? I believe that a person who has been convicted of a violent felony should not be allowed to own a firearm until after a judge and jury has viewed his life for the past 10 years after his release from prison and decides that he "appears" to have left his life of crime in his past. I believe that a person who is mentally deranged and is professionally and legally determined to be a danger to himself or others should not have a firearm.

I believe that under normal conditions, the laws against discharging firearms in certain areas are fine. If the poop hits the rotating air movement device, then those laws shouldn't apply. For instance, you can have a law that says no discharge of firearms within a city limit. However, this law should not preclude discharging a gun in self defense.

I apologize that my statement seemed to link no gun laws with anarchy. That was not my intent.

By the way, I believe there were laws prior to 1934 about carrying concealed pistols. Most state constitutions allow for the regulation of carrying concealed firearms. Back in those days, when it was perfectly acceptable to openly carry firearms virtually anywhere, concealed carry was seen as a nefarious action which was likely to be related to criminal activity.
 
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I am not an anti in any form. I love shooting and hunting and would not give up my firearms without a fight, but the law is the law. I just do not NEED firearms in my life. My world does not revolve around ammo prices and when the next issue of American Handgunner comes out. I am shooter and hunter, but not an extremist who thinks I should have the right to buy whatever I want, I am quite happy with the selection on the table now.

As to buying AK-47's in third world countries for so little money, why don't you go there and have all the AK's you want. Your life will be complete and you can sit in your dwelling stocked full of AK-47's and giggle all day because you are beating the $200 tax in the US. You will be living in a third world country and will most likely die of disease or starvation but you will have your full autos at last.

I think this discussion has rapidly gone down hill and that no one is changing their mind on anything.

YK
 
Kudos

Yukon,
Thanks for your input. I think we might be what they call a "silent majority";) As boards go this one is a very good for for getting information about firearms and learning other useful firearms related things.

There are extremists/ideologues who post (pariticularly in this forum) a good bit of the time and good for them! I respect their views but don't agree with them and won't help them achieve some of the things they want.

I post here from time to time to make sure they know that not all gun owners agree with their all or nothing, black and white view of the 2A. Don't get frustrated too much and remember on the important issues of gun ownership(not full auto), I and I hope you too are with them. You won't change their minds but they won't change yours either. Adios!
 
Some folks dont care if some guns are banned, just so long as theirguns arent banned. Some folks think the 2nd amendment only applies to the $5000 over-under shotgun they shoot trap with.

The 2nd amendment doesnt say "the right of the people to keep and bear sporting guns shall not be infringed" If you think it does, then you need to do a little reading.

Its that attitude that caused the troubles in Austrailia and the UK
 
Do not worry TG, I am not an anti, I love my weapons and I love to shoot. I just do not feel that civilians have any need for fully automatic weapons and all this complaining over money is silly. They are still buyable, it is complicated and expensive, but it is doable, so go do it if you want to.

I am with the other gun owners on the basic laws, I do believe that it is my right to own firearms and to enjoy shooting them, and I a member of the NRA (mostly because my range required it to join). I guess I am just not an extremist like some of the members here who think that they need to be as armed and dangerous as Rambo to walk down and get the mail.

YK
 
Yukon, I don't mean any offense to you again, but again I read a post of yours that contradicts itself.

You say you love your firearms and would not give them up without a fight, yet your next line says the "law is the law". So in other words, if (when is more likely unfortunately) they pass legislation that makes your handguns, your high capacity magazines, or your semi auto firearms that look like military guns illegal, you'll just turn them in without question.

Afterall, the "law is the law" right?

I mean, the concept that I'm trying to help you extract from this discussion is that the law sometimes isn't the law. Following orders sometimes is not the honorable thing to do.

I perfectly understand where USAF is coming from when he mentions slavery within this discussion. He is not saying that gun control = slavery. Rather, he is saying in reference to statements like yours that slavery at one time was the "LAW". Segregation was the "LAW". Women not being able to vote was the "LAW".

What we can get from this is, one day, there exists the possibility that ownership of any firearm could very well be illegal, and it would the "LAW".

You sound quite intelligent, and I am pleased to have this civil discussion with you, but I honestly cannot see how you are not understanding this simple concept.

To paraphrase the saying, "better in my time, than in my children's" is very appropriate here. I'm betting that almost all members here were not around or were very young in 1934. Yet, that piece of legislation that affects our gun ownership has stood for decades, and we have accepted it to be normal. Who's to say that our grandchildren wouldn't be living in a time where they think a limit of 5 rnd magazines, or banning of semi autos is the same way?

It's hard for me to swallow when you say you're not an "anti". I mean, "walk around like Rambo to get the mail" ? Listen to yourself, that's what the "antis" say about us with AR 15s !
 
Need?

We keep coming back to one particular word, need. Usually combined with the words don't and the people.

The people don't need......whatever it is you wish to deny us.

My quick cursory examination reveals the word need is nowhere in the 2nd Amendment. Or the rest of the Bill of Rights.

The word necessary is used in the 2nd Amendment.

So is the word rights. Several times throughout the Bill of Rights.

The rest of the Constitution? I'm not certain, since I haven't made a detailed examination recently, but I don't think the word need is in there either.

The whole argument over gun laws boils down to one side claiming that "you don't need it, it is dangerous, therefore you shouldn't have it." And the other side claiming that "we have the right to decide for ourselves".

Notice how those people who are the public proponents of restricting firearms to the public, up to and including outright prohibition have no issues with guns in the hands of the military, the police, goverment agencies, or private security agencies. Or in some cases, in their own hands directly. Why is that do you think?

Why is it that they think that people paid to carry a gun as part of their job are any different that people who are not paid to do this? Does a uniform or a badge automatically make them incapable of breaking the law? It is because if they misuse a gun they will face more than the jail and civil penalties that the rest of us would face for the same thing, they would also lose their job! And the fear of losing their job keeps them from doing evil? Is it because they believe that only people incapable of doing evil take this kind of employment? Or that there are screening processes that ensure, beyond doubt and without fail, that people capable of doing evil cannot get a job that involves carrying a, or access to a gun? Is it because they blindly trust them to follow orders?

I honestly do not know how they can place complete faith in the intentions of paid employees on the one hand, and such a lack of faith in the intentions of private citizens on the other. Hundreds of millions of people have been murdered in the past century alone by men wearing uniforms and/or carrying badges, and following orders.

I will agree, to a point, with those here that, we, the people, do not need machineguns, or any other firearms. It is true, we do not need them
TODAY!
But what about tomorrow?
 
Well this discussion seems to be over. Good, responsible, law abiding gun owners and hunters like me are now being called "anti's" by the extremists in our small shooting community just because we do not feel that any one should be able to go buy an M-16.

I follow the laws, they are there for a reason, speed limits are designed to keep people safe, gun laws are the same. I am not going to waste my time arguing with a bunch of people who don't even own full autos and cannot give me an reasons why they should have them or need them. There is nothing stopping you this minute from buying one other than your own finances, so take out a second mortgage on your house or trailer or whatever and go out and buy one (be sure to complain extra loud about the $200 tax, thats not even 2 full tanks of gas)

I have nothing else to say here, there is no point arguing with people who don't listen and cannot be reasonable. If anyone wishes to PM me in order to continue arguing that would be great, but I do not want to cluttle this firearms board with bickering anymore. I realize that you are all as fed up with me as I am with you and I hope that we can reach an agreement. I agree to disagree with you guys :) If there is ever a government enslavement of the people I am sure I will be able to make do just fine with my 24 (counted them last night :o) firearms and will not be wishing I have bought an M-16

Thank you for your time and opinions

YK
 
Well this discussion seems to be over. Good, responsible, law abiding gun owners and hunters like me are now being called "anti's" by the extremists in our small shooting community just because we do not feel that any one should be able to go buy an M-16.
What's reasonable about picking and choosing which firearms someone should be allowed to own based on what someone else thinks they "need?"

I'm not saying you're "anti-gun," I'm just saying you're "anti-somebody-else's gun." That doesn't mean you're not a good, responsible, law-abiding gun owner and hunter, but I don't see why you imply here that those of us who would like to own an M-16 are not also counted among that group.

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Did you know that an early draft of one of California's recent gun bans (AB.2222) would have banned essentially all shotguns except for the .410, because they're all over 50 caliber? The 28-gauge is .55 caliber, and the 12-gauge is a whopping .729 caliber.

Perata's reasoning? "Who needs a round that big anyway?" They did succeed in banning the .50 BMG round, which led to speculation about the development of a .495 BMG round.

Ever heard of "Goldilocks Gun Control? "That gun is toooo biiiig. That gun is toooo small." Guess what? They'll never find a gun that's "just right." And if you don't stand up for our right to own the kind of gun we choose, who will be left to stand up for your right to own a shotgun and bolt-action rifle in the end?
 
Point of information. The National Firearms Act of 1934 was not the first gun control law in the United States of America. It was the first NATIONAL gun control law. Prior this time any gun control laws were at the state and local level. And yes, they were mostly Jim Crow laws, the intent of which were to deny black individuals their right to self defense by making cheap "saturday night specials" illegal.
 
That's fine Yukon and TG. I respect your opinions even though I disagree.

Let's all hope we never have to find out if I'm (and the other members who have a problem with prohibitions) are correct!:)

Hate to see you guys leave this site just because we disagree on full auto prohibitions.

As to me being an extremist when it comes to the 2nd Amendment? You and TG are correct. I am a very strong proponent of the 2nd Amendment. I simply believe it is the right that protects all other rights and protects our country from invaders.
 
I subscribe to the idea that, as one reason for each of us to own firearms is to form the militia in time of need, that we should each be equipped with the proper military type weapons of the day.
 
Jim Crow laws, the intent of which were to deny black individuals their right to self defense by making cheap "saturday night specials" illegal.

IIRC, the problem was black on black crime, things getting out of hand on Saturday nights, and the intent was to address a problem with black on black crime. What is to be gained by saying that the intent was to deny blacks their right to self defense? It kind of seems like the agenda is to call gun control "racist" and blame it on the South.
 
RDak, I only view that as one of the reasons for the owning of firearms. That one may not apply to you..but it makes it no less applicable to others.
 
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