280 AI or .270

Ridgerunner665, My front door is over 7600ft and I hunt average 8500ft to over 10k. I never run ballistic on rifle I'm having build so till I load for it I have no idea what velocity is and I won't run a load over chronograph till accuracy is what I think it should be. Other thing is, I'm in no rush so if it takes year or so before I hunt with it no big deal and I really like to have year or so before I hunt with one.
 
Ridge Runner, Nosler is selling the Ackley because everything "custom" is selling at the moment. Believe it or not, I know how to build an Ackley. The easiest way would be to buy a .280 Remington and ream it. If I were going to build one, I would not build tha Ackley improved, I would build the Ackley magnum. Depends on how you ream it as to what you get. The magnum wont fire factroy 280 Remington, but it picks up about 50 fps more on the heaviest bullets.

I think Ackley said "as long as the bolt stays in the rifle, it's OK." I remember reading about him trying to blow up 98 Mausers and him becoming frustrated because it was almost impossible to blow them up without using pistol powder.
 
Last edited:
old roper,
I understand...and that explains it...but when you run the Ackley at 8,000 feet it changes things too....200 fps difference it 800 yards, widens the gap from your 270 some....not knocking your 270, just pointing it out...the comparison you made before wasn't on even terms ;)

 
Last edited:
No wonder everybody is buying customs...getting an off the shelf rifle thats built right is a crap shoot...every dang one I buy has something wrong with it...I'll save my money and buy the higher priced ones...instead of having 4 safes crammed full of guns, now I only have 1 save with 12 guns in it....same amount of money invested, and less headaches.

My wifes 270...a model 70 Featherweight Deluxe, $800 rifle...the bolt face looks terrible, machining marks all over it...it shoots great so its not a huge deal, but still...
 
Last edited:
No....it stops at the WSM.

Shouldn't be that hard to believe...the 7mm RSUAM has LESS case capacity than the Ackley...and it gets real dang close to the 7mm WSM...add a couple grains of powder, and PRESTO!...you have the Ackley running right along with it, until you get into really heavy bullets.

Its simple physics...if there is such a thing.


And going up in elevation makes them all shoot better...the air is thinner.
 
Last edited:
Simple physics dictates that all other factors being equal, a bigger case will give you a higher velocity. That is making the assumption that an ideal powder exists for for each volume. If a smaller case is beating a larger case, one of the other factors in the equation is not equal.
Roy Weatherby pretty much proved that point by necking the .378 WBY down to .22.
 
That's exactly right...and explains why the Ackley does what it does...there are a few powders that fit it pretty good....MRP, 7828, Reloder 22...to name a few.
 
Ridgerunner, your altitude change point has been an issue for years. It's the reason sea level residents have problems with their BDC scopes at long range in high altitudes. People shooting their .308 Win's at the NRA Whittington Center's 1000 yard line at 6600 feet up never got on paper with their stuff on the 1000 yard line at Camp Perry's 1000 yard line at 580 feet altitude. Their bullets were hitting the dirt about 2 feet below and in front of the 6 foot square target paper. There's been a few who quit in disgust after shooting a dozen or so misses and their scorer didn't know how to watch the bullet's trace to get their sighters on paper.
 
OK, but hold on a second:

The number one argument for the .280 AI is 7mm RM velocities with less powder and less recoil, all in a lighter handier rifle
Click to expand...

taylorce, while you are correct that the truth value of that entire statement as a whole, is "false", due to 2 things: (1) there being so many "ands" in there (i.e. lighter rifle AND less recoil at the same time) for the reason you pointed out (magnum action=heavier receiver=equalizing felt recoil), and (2) It just doesn't *equal* 7mm remmag no matter how you slice it.

However, I wish to note that if you don't require the "ands" to all be true, by parsing the statement and then tweaking it some, there is a pretty good benefit

For example, these statements:

1. *Almost* 7mm RM velocities with less powder and less recoil, ceteris paribus (same rifle weight) - and no belt - and 1 more capacity (I think?).
2. *Almost* 7mm RM velocities with less powder and the same recoil, but in a lighter handier rifle - and no belt - and 1 more capacity.

both have "true" truth values, and that's saying something significant.

NOW, which one of you is going to start the ".270 WSM vs. .270 Win AI" thread? :D
 
I definitely wont start the .270 WSM vs .270 AI thread because I am not a fan of the .270 WSM. I am a fan of the .270 Weatherby.:D Having said that, I did just build a .270 WSM with a whole heaping bunch of freebore to try to get its less than stellar velocities up.;)
 
Ridgerunner665, No question we were not even since I had my velocity at 2850fps vs 3100fps you had and I had no idea were you lived.

If we were equal on the velocity I would used my 270Wby
 
Now don't go getting drunk on the .280 AI Kool-Aid as well. It's like the other day when you asked if heavy .224 bullets weren't better at 300 yards than light ones. In the grand scheme of things there is no real difference between any of the cartridges we've been talking about.

If we talk MPBR the .280 AI only adds 13 yards over the .270 Win on an 8" target. Again not a significant increase in range. So for a hunting rifle there is no real difference in range and performance between the .280 AI and .270 Win. Let's face it after MPBR all these rounds become pretty equal.

Run the numbers using the LRAB using .295 G7 BC for the 7mm at 3100 fps, then use .273 G7 for a 1:10 twist .270 or .291 G7 for a fast twist .270 both at 3000 fps. You'll be within 1-2 MOA in both windage and elevation out to 800 yards regardless of your elevation above sea level. You'll only see a gap of less than 150 fps and 190 ft-lbs of energy. None of this is a significant increase of performance on game even elk.

It doesn't change the fact that all are very adequate for the intended purposes of hunting everything including elk. There is nothing special to the shape of the AI case nor it's increased powder capacity. Plus if anyone has ever read PO Ackley's books, they'd know he didn't see a whole lot of benefit to improving any 06 based cartridge especially the .270 Win.
 
For the most part, I agree taylorce1...but

There is a little something special about the shape of the AI case...it doesn't stretch as much, which makes it last longer.

And the difference you note between the AI and the 270 Win...is about the same as the difference between the 270 Win and 270 WSM...most folks think that is a significant difference.

And by the numbers...the 270 Ackley gains more than the 280 Ackley...going by memory, I believe the gains were reported to be 8.8% for the 270, and 7.7% for the 280, but that is with 2 different bullet weights...I read that somewhere online, forget where....performance gains aside...the case life improvement is ALWAYS there.


Found it...the heavier the bullet for a given round, the higher the gains
Ackley Improved comparisons to standard rounds... http://gunloads.com/castboolits/attachment.php?attachmentid=28589&d=1295041970
 
Last edited:
old roper,
That Weatherby puts us about even...that little bit more speed makes up for the lack of BC....you're ahead by about 10 fps at 800 yards ( but losing ground after that ;))....calculated at 8,000 feet.
 
Last edited:
I want to reiterate something here...I'm not trying to say any of these other rounds are inadequate.

I'm only trying to make it clear that the 280 Ackley deserves respect in these circles...like when somebody gets on here and asks "whats the difference between the 270 Win and 280 Ackley"...or "whats the difference between the 7mm WSM and the 280 Ackley"...give them honest, educated, and unbiased answers...I know that "unbiased" part is hard for some, but you can do it....I have faith in you.

Being honest and forthright about it isn't condemning your favored round...you have your reasons for what you chose, therefore it is right for you...but that doesn't make it "right" for everybody.

The 280 Ackley may be stealing some of the spotlight...but I reckon its earned that right...it hung around for 50 years as a popular wildcat, so I'd bet its here to stay...its standardized, components are easy to get, no belts, higher magazine capacity, better case life, better barrel life, and excellent ballistics....those benefits there, nobody can argue with.


If anyone has a right to be utterly disgusted with the success of the 280 Ackley....its Remington....they got so very close to perfection, not just once...but twice (280 Rem and 7mm RSUAM)...and missed it both times!!! They'd be wise to try to make up for that by being quick to offer factory ammo for it...
 
Last edited:
Ridgerunner, your altitude change point has been an issue for years. It's the reason sea level residents have problems with their BDC scopes at long range in high altitudes. People shooting their .308 Win's at the NRA Whittington Center's 1000 yard line at 6600 feet up never got on paper with their stuff on the 1000 yard line at Camp Perry's 1000 yard line at 580 feet altitude. Their bullets were hitting the dirt about 2 feet below and in front of the 6 foot square target paper. There's been a few who quit in disgust after shooting a dozen or so misses and their scorer didn't know how to watch the bullet's trace to get their sighters on paper.
Click to expand...

Bart,
Yeah...its amazing how many people don't realize what a huge difference altitude makes.

At 8,000 feet...with high BC bullets even the 7x57 (7mm Mauser) is a genuine 500 yard elk rifle....

150 grain Nosler Accubond LR bullets from the 7mm Mauser...and it can be loaded hotter than this, this is just a moderate load.



For comparison...here is the same load at sea level
 
No argument from me on the case stretch, the 40 degree shoulder pretty much stops all case stretch and thus eliminating trimming.

.270 vs. .270 WSM, don't care I don't own a WSM and never saw the point to jumping on that band wagon. I wouldn't turn down a WSM that was a good deal, but I don't know if I'd hang up my .270 Win for a WSM. Though I've got a couple of buddies that swear buy them.

Your chart is all fine and all that but it only compares the AI cartridge to factory ammunition speeds. Then there is the fact that it only focus on speed and there is no mention of accuracy. If you hand load to 3000 fps with a 150 grain bullet which is possible with several powders. This makes the difference of 100 fps vs. the AI and thus you have less than a 4% gain in velocity. Same goes for the 130 grain weight for the .270 Win. At best you'll only probably average a 100 fps gain over the standard 06 based case if you AI it when you're only loading for velocity.

As far as this discussion being unbiased by any of the parties involved, well that pretty much is a laugh. I've messed with a lot of wildcats over the last 20 years, so I'm biased to where I don't believe that most of them are not a worth while endeavor. You're biased in the fact that you bought the .280 AI and now you are trying to get everyone to agree with your reasoning for that purchase. None of us have presented an unbiased opinion on anything in this thread, so there is no need to pretend that it has been done.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top