26 Nosler claims: do you believe them?

Saltydog235 said:
You weren't named specifically as a basher and it's not just you. There are people on every message board that gunpowder is the main topic poo-pooing the round but none of them have yet to pull the trigger on one. I doubt very seriously if Nosler is going to make wild claims that don't bare out on the cartridge. Nosler has always been a pretty good company that is responsive to the consumer base, the last thing they want is to make false claims. Doubtful that the profit margins they deal in are enough to take a hit on a poorly designed product and having the base turn on them.



LOL, one thing I doubt you see in the near future is an Hornady A-Max or other bullet offered unless it is reloaded. Nosler's success with the entire thing lies in getting the guns chambered and the cartridge out there for consumption. This is where there seems to be the biggest disconnect. It will be a flop if it remain proprietary and garners little more than wildcat following.



I admit to being somewhat enthralled with the round at the announcement but after thought and finding out more on the availability I don't see it taking off. Lets face it, the majority of people want to walk in and buy a box of cartridges to shoot, not sit at the bench and craft a round for it. Those same people are going to buy a box or two of $50.00 plus ammo for their $1,600.00 gun, sight it in and wait for two/three shots per season. Long term viability isn't achieved if sales don't demand it.



Nope, the success of the 26 Nosler is dependent of Remington, Winchester, Savage etc picking it up in their every man rifles. The if's, what's, can's and when's of the ballistics don't mean that much until that happens.
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Why wouldn't Nosler make claims that don't come true? It happens all the time. The .204Ruger, one of my favorite rounds ever, doesn't come close to Hornady/Ruger's claims of 4,200fps with a 32gr bullet. Few rifles reach 4,050.

Just because folks point out exaggerations doesn't mean they're hear to "poo-poo" the round any more than it makes you a "fan boy" if you speak positively about it.

Besides that, most of us aren't saying that Nosler is lying. I'm saying they're exaggerating by sighting it with a much larger target radius than would be assumed under normal circumstances. They leave that out and then claim no hold over at 415 yards.

Reminds me of Jeep advertising "the longest range per tank in it's class". That's not a lie, but do you care? Would you rather go 400 miles at 25mpg with a 16 gallon tank or 500 miles at 20mpg with a 25 gallon tank?

Longest range per tank isn't a lie, but the implication most folks will "hear" IS a lie. Same with Nosler. It's not a lie but it implies something that isn't true.
 
Why wouldn't Nosler make claims that don't come true? It happens all the time. The .204Ruger, one of my favorite rounds ever, doesn't come close to Hornady/Ruger's claims of 4,200fps with a 32gr bullet. Few rifles reach 4,050.

J
ust because folks point out exaggerations doesn't mean they're hear to "poo-poo" the round any more than it makes you a "fan boy" if you speak positively about it.

Besides that, most of us aren't saying that Nosler is lying. I'm saying they're exaggerating by sighting it with a much larger target radius than would be assumed under normal circumstances. They leave that out and then claim no hold over at 415 yards.

Reminds me of Jeep advertising "the longest range per tank in it's class". That's not a lie, but do you care? Would you rather go 400 miles at 25mpg with a 16 gallon tank or 500 miles at 20mpg with a 25 gallon tank?

Longest range per tank isn't a lie, but the implication most folks will "hear" IS a lie. Same with Nosler. It's not a lie but it implies something that isn't true.
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Have you put your hands on the rifle or round? Have you pulled the trigger on one yet? Have you set up a Chrony and run tests? Do you know anyone who has or has a cousin's, best friends brother's uncles son who has had experience with it? Were you present when they tested the round to come up with the data they used for their claims?

The answer is no you don't and weren't. Your suppositions are just that, suppositions, your data is compelling but not based on experience with the round. Maybe Nosler has exaggerated things some, maybe they haven't. Time will tell as will real world experience with the round and reports.

You and a few others have been bashing the round since I put up the first post on it back when it was announced. How about lets get it out there and put it through the paces before it's totally discounted. I can't call it what it is, so Negative Nelly will have to suffice. Maybe be a bit more open minded and receptive to something before you say what it can and cannot do, or at least back it up with personal experience or the cousin's best friends, brothers etc.

Your thoughts/suppositions may be fully borne out, then again they may not be.
 
Have you put your hands on the rifle or round? Have you pulled the trigger on one yet? Have you set up a Chrony and run tests? Do you know anyone who has or has a cousin's, best friends brother's uncles son who has had experience with it? Were you present when they tested the round to come up with the data they used for their claims?

The answer is no you don't and weren't.
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Have you done any of those things?

since I put up the first post on it back when it was announced.
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Why are you posting about it if you haven't used it?

My objections don't require use... Nosler makes specific claims with enough data that we can extrapolate the rest. The laws of physics don't change when the gun gets to your hands.

If they are shooting that bullet at that speed with a a 415 yard MPBR, they are sighted 5" high. That is an extra ordinary condition which is not a reasonable assumption. They do not specify that particular condition because they know it would make their extra ordinary claim seem to be NOT extraordinary and would make their new round seem very ordinary... because it is.

Most folks sight in no more than 3" high. The .26 Noslers MPBR with 3" max would about 339 yards.
Compare that to a .264Win Mag, at 327, or a 6.5Rem Mag at 316.

Hm. That's a lot less impressive.

Let's put it at 5" though, that's ok as long as you actually TELL PEOPLE.

The Nosler get 415, as they claim. The .264WIn Mag gets 399 and the 6.5Rem Mag gets 386.

The real difference? Let's say you've got 2 guns on a hunt with you, a .264Win Mag and a .26 Nosler, both sighted 5" high and you're going to take a shot at 415 with no holdover. You randomly reach into a box and take one out.... you know how much difference it makes at 415 yards?

1.6 inches.

That's not all that extraordinary, is it?

Further, when I consider windage at those ranges... the .264WinMag will drift 8.9" and the .26Nosler 8.4".... both are well outside (80% larger) than your 5" target radius. That means you're making clicks anyway. 415 yards shots require time to make adjustments. The difference between 8 clicks windage and ready rather than 8 clicks windage and 6 clicks elevation is irrelevant. Certainly not extraordinary. Few folks will take a shot knowing they're going to be 5" low. They just make the clicks. If you're going to make the clicks anyway, it really makes no difference if you make 4 or 6. If you're not going to make the clicks anyway, you can't hold smaller than 1.6" at 415 anyway.
 
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I haven't made any claims as to what it can and cannot do. I haven't made assumptions on what Nosler used as the criteria to arrive at their claims. I have said all that much about the cartridge at all other than it looks interesting but that it will fail to achieve and marketable notoriety unless it is put into a production rifle. I think the cartridge is interesting and would like to play around with it in the future, that's the limits of my commentary on the round.

By your own calculations, then Nosler's 26 is superior to the 264 then isn't it. The point is Nosler made a better mousetrap. Was the mousetrap needed, not at all. The old mousetraps work fine but everyone is tired of them. Nosler did what any company does to survive, it innovated a new round and marketed it. I guess you feel the way about this that I do about all those short mags, they are unnecessary and really don't do anything the old standards didn't do.

Again, I'm not saying that you aren't right 100%, I am saying to let it get some real world work before it is discounted totally. My guess is most of us never really get to mess around with it due to the limited availability of the guns and ammo, not to mention expense of both. Personally I think it dies on the vine in a few years looking at the way they are putting it out there.
 
Thank you Brian.

You don't need to actually run tests, it's just Newtonian physics. Given the information Nosler has provided; these things are almost EXACTLY predictable!
 
I am saying to let it get some real world work before it is discounted totally.
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So, you'd like the threads on it to be filled with:

Poster 1 "Looks interesting."

Poster 2 "Yep, sure does."

Poster 3 "Yeah, I agree, interesting."

Poster 4 "You guys are right, it's interesting."

What are we to discuss if we can't evaluate anything?

I haven't made assumptions
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I haven't made any assumptions either. It's physics. They give an exact bullet, an exact muzzle velocity and an exact MPBR. There are trajectory calculators all over the internet. Pick your favorite and enter the numbers. Let me know when you find one that disagrees.

I've also not said a single thing about the round being superior or inferior. I have addressed Nosler's claims, the basis for those claims, how they effect perception and what the real differences actually are in the real world.

Is it "superior"? Theoretically, yes, in a purely literal sense, as a matter of NOTHING BUT trajectory, it would appear so, by about 1.6" at 415 yards.

If only that were the only consideration.
 
Brian is correct in all he's saying.
I would add only one thing to this.

If a new round would shoot 6" flatter at 400 yards that the old round you can use that advantage only if you can hold well within that correction. Right?
In other words you have to ba able to hold a wobble of about 1.3 MOA or less to even use the advantage.

So.........if you can hold a wobble of 1.3 MOA or less you can also hold 6” higher.

So the "advantage" is really not important at best, and non-existent at worst.

When I was in the Marine Corps we used the M-40 as our Sniper’s Rifle and we held our hold overs and hold unders from 200 to 1000 yards.
Yes, I would have preferred to have something flatter, but we did ok with a 30 cal 173gr at only 2550 Muzzle Velocity.
We all know about Carlo Hathcock and his abilities with a 30-06 Winchester M-70. He didn’t seem to miss having a super 264, and the lack of a super .264 didn’t seem to help the enemy much.
Equipment is important, but it’s much less important than the skill of the shooter.

A very skilled shooter with a 45-70 is going to do far better than a semi-skilled shooter with the new rifle.
 
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Here are some preliminary results on the .26 Nosler found on another forum.

Gunner75 said:
Initial 20 rounds of the factory 129's are history. I was wanting to get a feel for 100 to 500yrds and this is what I came up with.

20 rounds, Avg 3317 with ES of 60 and SD15. 100yrd Zero, 3.25 at 300, 4.75 at 400, 7.5 at 500yrds.

Shot my 6CM (just finished last fall) right next to this rifle. The recoil got me a little even though I have been running some heavy hitters. On the 500yrd target I changed my hold on the rifle on #4 and #5 and am certain that is what pulled them left.

Got the 20 cases worked and will run some 142SMK and or 140 Berger Hybrids on the next run for giggles.

My brass should be here shortly so I will drop back and retest.

Something I should mention. The last few Bartlein barrels I have ran seemed to settle in at 60 to 80 rounds give or take. Not blaming the barrel, just stating what I have witnessed on the previous.

IMG_2690_zpsb400f74c.jpg


IMG_2681_zps24551c27.jpg


300yrd group. One sighter, two follow up.
IMG_2674_zpsce5debe7.jpg


12th round Magneto Speed results.
IMG_2666_zps11fed4e8.jpg


IMG_2691_zpsfe74f65c.jpg
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That looks nice... But isn't 60 ES a bit on the high side for such a rifle and ammo combo?

Legit. 3300 for 129/130s is the real mccoy, roughly on a par with .264 win mag - maybe 50-75 fps more; maybe not when comparing apples to apples. Probably just a smidge better performance.

http://www.noslerreloading.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=20941

http://www.nosler.com/m48-patriot/

and why doesn't the Nosler site show the .26 Nosler ammo under either Trophy Grade or Trophy Grade LR?

http://www.nosler.com/trophy-grade/

http://www.nosler.com/trophy-grade-long-range/
 
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Extreme Spread or ES is not the main thing to worry about. There is usually an accuracy node and that a rifle will shoot in for speed and it could cover more than 100 fps. The main thing is to get your Standard Deviation or SD down low as possible, and I'd consider anything in the 20 or less rang pretty darn good for 20 rounds of factory ammunition.

I'm not a web site guru and don't know why the ammunition isn't listed yet. However, they have it listed under new products.
 
Nothing New Under The Sun

When is comes to rifle cartridge development and expansion ratio. Grab a copy of Ackley's Rifles and Cartridges. Until the powder companies develop powder treatments that can produce greater velocities at acceptable pressures, over bore cartridges will remain a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.
 
Overbore is not really a mystery at all. I do not know the physics formulas for it, but burn more of a given powder, get more velocity. The larger the case volume, the more powder you can burn without blowing the rifle up. As long as one understands that the more over bore you go, the more your returns diminish, its not all that complicated. A .50 BMG necked down to .30 Cal is not much faster than a .30-378 even though it burns twice the powder. One must also keep in mind that if you can work it out to where it does not mess up your accuracy, freebore is the same as extra case capacity. Thats how I make my .30 cal wildcat beat a .30-378WBY even though it has 4% less case capacity than the WBY. WBY is using freebore, I am using a ridiculous amount of freebore.
 
Reynolds says:
I doubt it is faster than the win mag. The Win mag is one of the most underloaded cartridges I have ever seen. In many cases, it capable of 12 to 15% more velocity than published data.
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A .264 Win Mag can shoot 140-gr. bullets out at 3467 fps at SAAMI spec max avg pressure of 64,000 psi? That's 15% more velocity than industry standards.

Why is it underloaded when SAAMI specs state that bullet and psi numbers are for 3015 fps as shown on page 5 in:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/specifications/Velocity_Pressure_CfR.pdf

There is no official physics formula I know of for what overbore capacity is. My own emperically devloped one is overbore cartridges burn more powder in grains than the bore's cross sectional area in square millimeters is. A 30 caliber bore has about 45 square millimeters cross sectional area so 45 grains of powder is bore capacity for 30 caliber. 30 caliber cartridges using more than 45 grains of powder are called 'overbore capacity' ones. All cartridge right at bore capacity seem to get about 3000 rounds of tack-drivin' accuracy; .222 Rem., 6PPC and .308 Win. are examples. One guy even improved on my formula by adding powder burn intensity values; hotter powders reduce barrel life, cooler ones increase it.
 
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I second the refutation Bart makes. The .264 win mag will be crazy overpressure to get those numbers. Look at it another way; that's as fast as a 7mm ULTRA mag is able to push a 140 grain bullet. And there is no comparison between said rounds.
 
GeauxTide, powders have come a very long way since Ackley's day. Specifically there seems to have been a LOT of development at the slow end, which IIRC is what the relatively over-bore cartridges prefer to be fed.
 
Before ultraslow (extra-slow?) powders came about, none of the slowest ones back then were really great in the accuracy games. While they would push a given bullet out faster with the same peak pressure, the pressure curve was not too repeatable. Muzzle velocity spreads got bigger and accuracy wasn't as good as slower, middle range powders for the case size produced.

Overbore cartridges of decades gone by clustered bullets the closest together on target with upper mid range powders; fastest burning at the low end and slowest at the high end. Good examples are the .308 Norma Mag and .300 Win Mag with medium to heavy weight bullets. IMR4350 or the next slowest powder won the matches and set the records. IMR4831 and slower ones shot bullets faster and won all the races to the target but the real estate they landed in had more acreage.

If these new superformance (sp?) powders win a lot in accuracy games, then they'll have some credibility.
 
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Bart, the .264 Win mag is underloaded because I have gotten much, much, faster velocity out of it than published data. One of my actions is on its 4th barrel and has not blown up yet. Two actions are on second barrel and one action is about to be on its second barrel. Yet to blow any of them up. Granted my rifle I get the blistering velocities out of has a ridiculous amount of freebore, but the ones without the freebore can be loaded almost as hot as it can. I have a load with 85 grain bullet that runs over the chrono between 4040 and 4070 depending on temp. As far as brass voodo goes, it shows no pressure signs.
 
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