25 yard accuracy?

From my experience I can't really say that 1.5" at 25 yards is common across the spectrum. Especially from stock semi-automatics.

The ordinary production U.S. made (Colt, S&W, Ruger, Dan Wesson) .38/.357 revolvers I've dealt with were all capable of sub-2" groups, sometimes requiring minor work (like reaming of cylinder throats). But they don't make them like they used too. These are mostly older revolvers and all have 6" or longer barrels. The only current production revolver I have that can do it is a stainless Ruger Blackhawk.

The number of semi-autos I've actually done that with or witnessed myself are few and were .45's or .22's.

I've never been able to get a 9mm there. Sadly.
 
Regardless of what you otherwise think of Mas Ayoob, I think most would have to agree that he is an experienced shooter and firearms reviewer. Just for grins I paged through his "Gun Digest Book of SIG Sauer, 2nd Edition".

Ayoob typically does accuracy testing of pistols he reviews by shooting from bench at 25 yards using some fashion of hand and/or pistol support (bags, etc). He uses commercially available ammunition but typically selects varieties that he feels will deliver optimal performance, and shoots 5 round groups with several different varieties, then publishes the results of the best group with each. And he does not say how many groups he shot to achieve that result.

So here are the results he obtained with several different SIG Sauer pistols in stock configuration using several different types of commercial ammo. Again, all are 5 round groups shot from bench with support. All of these are with 9 mm Luger ammunition except for the results for the P227 which is chambered in .45 ACP:

P226: 2.05", 3.35", 1.55"

P227: 1.90", 2.05", 0.70"

P229: 2.25", 3.05", 2.05"

P250 (full size): 2.10", 2.90", 2.95"

X-Six: 1.45", 2.50"

So only twice was he able to achieve a group size of less than 1.50 ", with the very expensive SIG X-Six, and one exceptional group shooting .45 ACP with the P 227. And here is what he said about that group:

"The group measurement was a personal best in many decades of shooting SIG-Sauer pistols: right at seven-tenths of one inch for all five, measuring the bullet holes center-to-center."

Here are some groups from a review of the civilian version of the Beretta M9, again shot from rest at 25 yards using a variety of commercial 9 mm ammunition types: 2.5", 2.0", 2.0", 2.4".

I think as stock pistols go, SIGs and Berettas are felt to be reasonably accurate. I've seen a lot of reviews of pistols that included accuracy testing at 25 yards shooting with support. IMO a stock pistol that achieves 5 round group sizes of 2.5" or less using commercial ammunition is doing quite well. One that shoots group sizes of less than 2.0" under the same conditions is somewhat exceptional. Is it possible for an accomplished shooter to achieve groups of 1.5" diameter or less with a stock pistol using commercial ammunition? Yes. Is it commonplace? In my experience and opinion, no.
 
I've never been able to get a 9mm there. Sadly.
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In the world of bulleye competition, David Sams is the go to gunsmith for bullseye accuracy 9mm Beretta's.
I was shooting next to an shooter who was on the USA Olympic team, and he was shooting a Sam's Beretta at our club's indoor match. One ragged hole every time whether slow, timed or rapid at the 50 foot distance (conventional match).

25 yards! That called the "short line". The slow fire at 50 yards "long line" is the real test!
 
44 AMP said:
Really? I'll disagree with that. Last time I took my Father's Government Model out, my best 5 shot group was just over 2". One ragged hole. That's plenty good in my book.
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Heck, I wish that I was that accurate! :eek: Nice shooting!

I suspect that most of my pistols are capable of much more accuracy than I can ever hope to supply; I've put two of them in Ransom rests and, at 25 yards, they provide sub-2-inch groups.
 
https://youtu.be/0dOVZ5TRCUw

Watch this Jerry Miculek video a few times... “Good technique is the foundation of all shooting”,

Bring the gun up to your dominant eye, lock you elbows and your wrists over center to minimize your muzzle jump so that the gun stays on target between intervals as you practice your bill drills.

I LMAO when he says ‘it’s not me it’s the gun”. I’m sure he’s selling more than a few of those S&W M&P Performance Center PRO C.O.R.E. models!
 
Other than the supposed qualifying rate for local LE, I don't know how to quantify hitting center mass 3 out of 4 times: good, average, or well below average?
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There are a good number of handgun shooters that cannot perform to that level. I have been shooting at my current range for almost 25 years and rarely see anyone trying to shoot a handgun at 25 yards.

As was mentioned earlier there is a difference between target shooting and combat shooting. I frequently shoot at 25 and 50 yards with a handgun but mostly slow fire with the exception of timed/rapid 25yard targets and even then the rate of fire is still sloth-like compared to defensive drills.

As to the 25 yard 1.5" guns , they are handguns capable but I feel safe to say very , very few shooters that can do it routinely freehanded.
 
I'm not sure what you're asking, since time is an issue here, and you didn't mention whether you were shooting under some time constraint, such as you would be in "combat shooting". If you're consistently getting 3 of 4 rounds into the CoM at 25 yards, while rapid firing ,I'd say you're doing well.

If you're asking about target accuracy, though, my standard answer to "what's good" is 3@25. That means a "good" (but not outstanding) shooter can shoot honest and consistent 3" 5-round unsupported groups from a good quality service-sized handgun under no time constraint. Revolver shooters should be able to do this in single- and double-action. Just pick up your gun and shoot your best 5. No "fliers" allowed.

That (3@25) might seem like a very high bar for merely "good" to some, but the marksmanship you'll generally see at your local range is downright abysmal. 3@25 it's very achievable with practice, but definitely won't get you to the Olympics.

If you want your groups to shrink, use an official NRA 25-yard bullseye target. A silhouette simply doesn't offer a consistent aiming point. And take your time ;)
 
nanney1 said:
I've been shooting for a little over a year, mainly at self-defense ranges 3,5,7 yards. So, a few weeks ago, I picked up a couple of new pistols and for whatever reason, I decided to shoot at 25 yards.

M&P9 m2.0 4.25" and Walther PPS M2, both with standard sights. I typically shoot 4 rounds on a silhouette target and then bring it in to look. Typically I can put three out of four in the center mass of the target at 25 yards, somewhere on the chest area to the abdomen area. The fourth is on the white outside of the silhouette. I'm pretty consistent in hitting 3 out of 4 and sometimes get all four.

From what I was told, local LE qualifying requires 75% on the target from this range. I believe they use an IDPA style cardboard cutout. So, based on that, I'm hitting at a qualifying rate.

Obviously, I'm not putting up a 7" group at 25yards. Other than the supposed qualifying rate for local LE, I don't know how to quantify hitting center mass 3 out of 4 times: good, average, or well below average?
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Note: I'm not an expert marksman, so take anything I say with a grain of salt, if you wish.

Also, I'm reasonably certain that all of my handguns can shoot better than I can get them to, so whether they will shoot 1.5 inch groups at 25 yds is largely irrelevant to me.

That said . . .

Based on what I've seen at my usual range, you're shooting well, or above average. Most people I observe at the range (using them as an "average") can't consistently hit paper at 25 yds, much less keep all their rounds in the black.

For myself, I have to say "it depends." If I allow myself an unlimited amount of time (not time limit/clock), and using any gun I desire, such as my GP-100 revolver in SA, I can shoot a 6 shot group in under 6 inches about half the time. Off hand, no rest/bags. Off bags that gun will pretty consistently shoot a bit better, around 4-4.5 inches, with any target loads.

With my S&W M&P9 2.0 my best 7-shot group @25 yds was just under 5 inches, but I freely admit that there had to be a fair bit of luck in that group. As an average, the gun with me behind the trigger probably shoots about 7-8 inches, again off hand, with no time limit. However, about half the time I'll shoot a group that stretches to at least 12 inches. Like I said I'm no expert.

Of course, this kind of shooting has little to do with a real life defensive shooting scenario, but I feel that shooting longer ranges helps me with trigger control, recoil control, sight picture, etc. Also, it can be very confidence-boosting when you get a better than average group. And fun, of course.

As to defensive shooting, a couple years ago I began shooting 12x20 inch steel IPSC silhouettes at both 25 and 35 yards, under time pressure, on the move, from prone/kneeling/standing positions, in low light. About 4-5 times a year.

What I found was once I stopped thinking about how far they were, I could consistently get first round hits in 'regulation time' though some hits weren't "center mass." I also found that it actually helped me to shoot faster. In other words, not to try to take time to get a perfect sight picture. "Perfect is the enemy of good," I guess. Now when I shoot faster, my groups at 25 yds on a paper target is definitely a foot or more in diameter, but now the group is usually centered in the 'chest/abdomen' area, so I feel this is an improvement of my earlier attempts two years ago.

Sidenote. This may or may not help you in your quest to be more accurate: Draw a one inch square on your target, or several; I usually draw 3 or 4 of them, spaced about 20 inches apart. Set the target at 5 yds and try to shoot 5 rounds into each square, no time limit. If you can pretty consistently put 4 out of 5 rds into each square, move the target out to 7 yds. If you can keep 3 out of 5 rds inside a 1-inch square at 7 yards on a consistent basis, you're a better shot than 90% of the normal shooters out there (excluding people like Jerry Miculek, of course). Then repeat with a 15 second time limit.

Regardless, if you can do this, then shooting inside 10 inches at 25 yards should get a lot easier.

But like I said at the beginning, you sound like you're doing pretty well. Just keep working on it every once in a while, and keep trying to push your limits and you should see results.
 
I won't speak to what it takes to be close range accurate in a hurry, there are others much better qualified for that than I. What I can say is that I used to shoot the 200yd gong on the rifle range, for recreation. Off hand, one hand, the classic old time stance with my left hand in my hip pocket.

I could ring the gong with any pistol you give me, after a few sighter shots. And I'd do repeatedly with the guns I was familiar with. Like 5 out of six on average, some guns even better, some not so much.

Ordinary service class semis are poor at that game, they just aren't built to be accurate enough, generally. There are exceptions.

I used to like bowling pin shooting, had a lot of fun, never was the fastest, but it was fun. Dropping 5 pins with a .44 Auto Mag in 5.36 seconds didn't even place third, time wise, but I figured it was good enough. :D
 
LE time frames & qualification

My agency firearms quals required 70% across the 30 rd course of fire. If one cleaned the course at 3-7-15 yds, you could be technically "qualified" before you reached the final stage at 25 yds, though you were required to shoot the entire course regardless. I'm proud to say that most of our LEO's that I dealt with over the years were gun savvy and shot well, scores running in 85% range and up. Longuns (rifle and shotgun) had separate quals with different stages.

At the 25 yd line, the 6 rd stage was shot from the classic vertical plank barricade, simulating cover. Time frames and course of fire as best I remember:
- On signal, or when targets turn, move 2 paces or so to your barricade, draw (from retention holster) and fire 3 rds from rt. side (6 or 8 seconds?). If on a turning target range, recover to ready pistol and utilize cover. If on fixed target range, cover the target.
-On signal or target presentation, from ready pistol, present firearm from the left side of the barricade, fire 2 rds, ( 4-5 secs?). recover to ready pistol, or cover target.
-On signal, or target presentation, drop to kneeling on rt side of barricade and fire one round (3 secs)

With a squared away crew and shooters that I was familiar with, I'd give one command to engage and allow them to work through the 3 positions and 6 rounds in 13-15 seconds, whatever was spec. We shot the Transtar - II target, the infamous "blue ghost", which sometimes came in when ordered as "green ghosts".
 
What I can say is that I used to shoot the 200yd gong on the rifle range, for recreation. Off hand, one hand, the classic old time stance with my left hand in my hip pocket.
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I’ve found that most grossly underestimate a decent shooters ability with a pistol. Shooting past 50 yards is rare for most, yet I believe most people could quickly learn to start making hits on appropriate sized targets beyond that range. I took my BP revolver to the 100 yard range and was hitting the 12” gong half the time (once I figured POA). My p07 or 1911 is about 4 for 5. I’m one of those weird people who seem to shoot better at distance. I actually “feel” much more an accomplished shooter making fairly consistent hits at 100 yards than I do holding sometimes 8” groups at 25.


Then again, the distance could have something to do with my developing eyesight issues, who knows. Either way that’s one reason why I recommend to the OP to up the distance. The main reason is it makes you focus on fundamentals of marksmanship. The second reason is it builds confidence when you start to make hits somewhat regularly.
 
I’m one of those weird people who seem to shoot better at distance.
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Everyone is different, skill levels vary, and over time they also change. I always figured that if I could hit small targets far away, I wouldn't have much trouble hitting a bigger target close up. And for me, that's pretty much proven true.

Decades ago I had a friend who was a "natural", and he could DA his S&W M19 and pick the chrome letters F O R D of the trunk of a junk car in less time than it takes you to read this. I was lucky to hit the trunk, DA. SA, I could shoot just as well, but much slower. We were of an age, and I actually had a few years more trigger time than he did, but he was a natural, and made it look easy.

My strength turned out to be accurate placement of shots at ranges out to a couple hundred yards, with a handgun. For me, it seemed fairly easy (once I learned the drop of whatever I was shooting) but other people couldn't seem to do it, more than rarely.

Never could do very well (shoot decent groups) shooting DA, and fast, or even slow. Shots just seemed to go where ever they felt like. SO, I never put much practice into that. Then just past turning 30, things changed, without me consciously doing anything different. Shooting the same guns, the same way, but out of the blue (so it seemed), the steel plates in my backyard range started going tink, tink, tink, bang tink,tink, and it even got a little better over time.

Some people start out learning defensive type shooting, and never go much beyond that. Others start shooting for fun, plinking, target shooting, and some hunting. Some of them learn defensive styles later, some never bother. Some folks mix both. For me, there's more to enjoying handgun shooting than 7 yard drills. A lot more.
 
I was never into this short range combat shooting. I use my pistols and revolvers for target and hunting. I have shot RF & CF silos a good bit. With magnum Revolvers I can hit a 12"
gong at 100yds more times than I miss. I have target guns set up for Bullseye 25' & 50'. I'm going on 69 and ain't near as good as I use to be but claims of SD type handguns that will do under 2" at 25yds need to be taken with a grain of salt. Also a lesson on Feet and yards may help. The average guy isn't going to keep his shots in a plate at 25yds with pistol or 100yds with a rifle.
 
Also a lesson on Feet and yards may help. The average guy isn't going to keep his shots in a plate at 25yds with pistol or 100yds with a rifle.
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I will agree. I will say average depends on the circle you run with. Most guys I shoot with are capable of the above referenced feat. That is friends, in my circle. I’ve been to a good number of public ranges within 100 miles of my house. 90% of the ranges, 90% of the time, my kids, me, and everyone in my group are the best shots there. Then there is the one range where I feel average, at best, about half the time I go there lol. I felt as though I was walking among giants a few trips there. Which isn’t a bad thing. I don’t envy those with more skill than I.
 
I like shooting at 5yd intervals and comparing groups. I'll start at 10yds, then 15, 20, and finally 25. I feel like I do pretty well given the firearms/ammo I use and the fact I haven't been at it for very long(2 years with handguns). 2 hands slow fire, I can put most of a magazine on a paper plate. I always get a couple strays, but out of a 16 or 19 round mag, Im not complaining.
 
Any discipline in shooting can and does produce shooters who can do things that appear magical. There is a video of a cowboy action shooter running through pistol, lever gun and pump gum that is truly amazin. Sorry that I cannot find the link.
Top Bullseye shooter produce amazing sets of shots at distances of 25 and 50 yards. The record for slow fire 20 shots at 50 yards one hand unsupported is 200/200 with 11 Xs. The 20 ring is 3.36” in diameter
 
just wait till you start moving around when you are shooting.

Keep up the good work and don't worry so much about measuring your groups. Just hit the target within an 8" square and be glad. Over time it will get better all by itself. Honestly, my groups have always been a mess and it doesn't bother me one bit. The contest is not likely ever going to be "who has the tightest groups". The bottom line that in a SD event, a hit on target is a hit on target.
 
Keep up the good work and don't worry so much about measuring your groups. Just hit the target within an 8" square and be glad. Over time it will get better all by itself. Honestly, my groups have always been a mess and it doesn't bother me one bit. The contest is not likely ever going to be "who has the tightest groups". The bottom line that in a SD event, a hit on target is a hit on target.
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While 25 yard cloverleafs might be a skill looking for an application, the fundamentals are called fundamentals for a good reason. Blow them off, and you'll struggle in everything you do, no matter how good you might think you are. There are plenty of folks unknowingly in this group, and they're usually very overconfident. It's a dangerous thing if you're carrying for SD.

If your marksmanship skills are lacking, even under no pressure, they're sure not going to be any better under duress. The idea that you'd be able to consistently hit an 8" target at speed and under stress just because you think you can do it otherwise is a myth.

I recall Brian Enos, the great practical shooter, commenting on his book (a "bible" of practical shooting), saying he might've chosen a slightly different title, since "you never really go beyond the fundamentals, you just do them better and faster".
 
I was a bit younger ;-)

Black target > 20 cm in diameter
German Sig Sauer P226 in 9 mm
Drill with 2 mags > focusing on front sight
So 2 mags > 28 seconds.


406267760.jpg
 
While 25 yard cloverleafs might be a skill looking for an application, the fundamentals are called fundamentals for a good reason. Blow them off, and you'll struggle in everything you do, no matter how good you might think you are. There are plenty of folks unknowingly in this group, and they're usually very overconfident. It's a dangerous thing if you're carrying for SD.

If your marksmanship skills are lacking, even under no pressure, they're sure not going to be any better under duress. The idea that you'd be able to consistently hit an 8" target at speed and under stress just because you think you can do it otherwise is a myth.

I recall Brian Enos, the great practical shooter, commenting on his book (a "bible" of practical shooting), saying he might've chosen a slightly different title, since "you never really go beyond the fundamentals, you just do them better and faster".
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I get it though, people tend to want to make their own skills as relevant as possible and sometimes to a fault. That aint me because I am not all that skillful LOL.

I don't think anyone is suggestion to ignore fundamentals of marksmanship. I suggested he not get all tore up over absolute group sizes. There are a lot of issues that encompass an effective SD system. Marksmanship, Tactics, Strategics, personal fortitude, mental grit, happenstance, Speed, Judgment, training, general fitness, knowledge, experience, adequate/reliable weapon and the list goes on. The sooner someone accepts that it aint all about a 2" group, the sooner they can get to work on a well rounded systems which includes much of what I just mentioned. Can winning the armed conflict you find yourself suddenly thrust into hinge on shooting a 2" group?.. it might. Is it likely to hinge on that? I really doubt it. Its possible that the best absolute marksman wins the day and its just as possible that half a dozen other factors decided the outcome. Being the strongest man in a fight is certainly a bonus but the strongest man does not always win and neither does the guy who can cut a playing card in two with one shot.

Sure,.. stress is a monkeywrench and so I shooting on the move or badguys on the move. That was the whole point of mentioning "wait till you are moving and shooting". If he didn't have a decent grasp of basic marksmanship, he wouldn't be shooting as decent as he is currently. He will get better with practice and he will get better with additional training. At this point, I dont think it makes much sense for him to worry about absolute groups and that is all I was trying to convey. He is doing fine and will only get better if he keeps at it. I wouldn't spend too much time with a measuring stick. If you are doing better, you'll know it.
 
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