25 yard accuracy?

N

nanney1

New member
I've been shooting for a little over a year, mainly at self-defense ranges 3,5,7 yards. So, a few weeks ago, I picked up a couple of new pistols and for whatever reason, I decided to shoot at 25 yards.

M&P9 m2.0 4.25" and Walther PPS M2, both with standard sights. I typically shoot 4 rounds on a silhouette target and then bring it in to look. Typically I can put three out of four in the center mass of the target at 25 yards, somewhere on the chest area to the abdomen area. The fourth is on the white outside of the silhouette. I'm pretty consistent in hitting 3 out of 4 and sometimes get all four.

From what I was told, local LE qualifying requires 75% on the target from this range. I believe they use an IDPA style cardboard cutout. So, based on that, I'm hitting at a qualifying rate.

Obviously, I'm not putting up a 7" group at 25yards. Other than the supposed qualifying rate for local LE, I don't know how to quantify hitting center mass 3 out of 4 times: good, average, or well below average?
 
I'd say you're doing pretty good. You're hitting a target consistently at 25yds/75ft with a single stack 9mm like the PPS. Keep practicing and those groups will tighten up even more. Try to find a range with moving targets too, completely different ballgame.
 
I was at my local public range. An LEO was taking his test. Shots were timed and range was not more than 10 yards that I remember.

Sounds like you are off to a good start.

David

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Cheap talk aside, 25 yards is a looooong way to shoot a pistol hand-held, and I think your groupings are pretty good.

In the real civilian world, if you ever drop anyone at that distance, you'll probably have some explaining to do anyway.
 
Expectations differ.

The ten ring on an NRA 50 yard bullseye is 3.36".
Best I ever did at PPC with a 4x6" ten ring at all ranges 7 to 50 yards was 1444 out of 1500.

These days I am happy to hold the IDPA 8" zero at 10 yards, the whole target at 15-20.

POST police qualification hereabouts is 70% on the Q (milkbottle) target 5-25 yards; SWAT 94%, instructor 96%. I can usually hit SWAT.
 
The difference between SD shooting and target is the same as bench rest rifle and hunting (with a twist that you may be the one at hte pointy end of hte spear)

Any pistol that can't shoot 1.5 inches at 25 yards is a very poor one.

When I was young and tough I could free hand shoot to that with a 41 magnum (those days are long gone sadly)

I never had to do a shoot for real (more than happy with that though in my case it was more likely a bear)

Where none of us really knows is what we will do if the *&^% hits the fan and how well we will do. If it comes to pass you hope your training holds.

My best ones (real life, KC I believe) was the range guy trainer who shot 1000 each time vs the street cop who shot badly.

Street cop was in 3 or 4 shootouts with successful outcomes (he won)

The range guy got into one on the street and lost (not dead fortunately).

That in no way says range work is not useful. What it does say is stress is the great equalizer (and sometimes flip)

While I don't think its valid now, back in the Vietnam and prior days, 90% of the killing was done by 10% of the troops.

You could never pick out which ones had that ability to maintain full capability and operate under combat and who did not. While it was a bell curve, at the far end were those guys who never fired.
 
I also go out to 25 yards occasionally (the max at my range) when I am shooting my 1911 or S&W TRR8, and am quite happy when I keep the majority of the round on the chest area of the silhouette. I can get a sub 3 inch group out to 30’. So I think you are doing great.

I’ve always considered claims of one inch groups from a handgun off hand at 25+ yards as dubious unless I have witnessed it myself.
 
RC20 said:
Any pistol that can't shoot 1.5 inches at 25 yards is a very poor one.
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For “any” pistol to be able to shoot 1-1/2” groups at 25’ in less than ideal ambient conditions, you’d better be carrying a Ransom Rest in your range bag! Most of the guns we talk about here can shoot better than the shooter.
 
I only shoot out to 25 yards occasionally and I am certainly not a great shot.

A couple of years ago I went out to Camp Perry and attended the CMP Small Arms Firing School Pistol. This concluded with an opportunity to participate in the M9 Excellence in Competition (EIC) match. This course and match was limited to unmodified military M9 pistols and 124 grain FMJ ammunition provided by the Army. Some of the individuals who shot in the match were new shooters, but it was apparent that the majority were not.

Targets used were standard NRA B-8 25 yard timed and rapid fire targets on rotating target stands. These targets have a 3 5/16" diameter 10 ring, a 5 1/2 " diameter black 9 ring, and a 19 9/16" diameter 5 ring. Any shots outside of the 5 ring receive no score. All shooting was done from 25 yards starting from the ready position (muzzle pointed down) and included 3 stages of fire each with a total of 10 rounds: Stage 1 slow fire: 5 rounds in 5 minutes, Stage 2 timed fire: 2 separate 5 round courses of fire, each over 20 seconds (4 seconds per shot), Stage 3 rapid fire: 2 separate 5 round courses of fire each over 10 seconds (2 seconds per shot). Total possible score 30 x 10 = 300.

There were a total of 230 shooters participating in the M9 EIC match. Highest score was 264 (6X). I did not shoot particularly well, especially in slow fire. My total score was 175 (1X) with which I was not too happy. But even that mediocre score was sufficient to put me at 82nd place out of 230. On my rapid fire Stage 3 shot for record, all 10 shots scored with 5 fives, 2 sixes, 2 sevens, and one 8 (total 59/100). Total spread for that 10 shot "group" was 17".

That may sound rather pathetic but that rapid fire score was actually well within the top 10% of the 230 shooters. It sounds to me as if your shooting is at a roughly comparable level to that so I would not be discouraged.

Anyone who can consistently shoot even 3 1/2" groups centered on target shooting freehand at 25 yards would score 300/300 on the EIC match. Just for perspective, the top score on the M9 service pistol National Match that year was a 289 (7X) shot by Staff Sgt. Ryan Franks of the US Army Marksmanship Unit.
 
About this:
Any pistol that can't shoot 1.5 inches at 25 yards is a very poor one.
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I have never shot any pistol or revolver that can do that even from a bench rest. Any that will do that are no doubt expensive and beyond the budget of many shooters. I assume this was meant for a 5 shot group? 5 shots should be a good standard unless one is using a 6 shot revolver, in which case you really should use every chamber. I shoot a 45 Vaquero with 4-5/8" barrel quite a bit at 25 yards. It occasionally will keep all 6 into a baseball size group. While the baseball can get lucky, the grapefruit is gonna get juiced. Shooting off-hand, of course.
Just now learning on a CZ-75C....I think it's pretty good and I will get better with it, maybe better than the Vaquero, but that remains to be seen.
 
RC20 said:
The difference between SD shooting and target is the same as bench rest rifle and hunting (with a twist that you may be the one at hte pointy end of hte spear)



Any pistol that can't shoot 1.5 inches at 25 yards is a very poor one.
Click to expand...

Say what now? Many if not most production pistols from a ransom rest and with a select ammunition will at best shoot 2".

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 
Getting 1 inch for 5 shots at 25 yards with my new DW PM-9 from a rest.

I can't get 1.5 with my new 45 Valor. This is from a rest with handloads or Federal Gold Medal Match 185 SWC.

My 9mm SA Range Officer Champion started out at 5.5" from a rest.

My daughter's Kimber two tone 9mm is good for 4-5 inches.

David

Sent from my SM-T900 using Tapatalk
 
Here are some 2 hand 25 Yard targets from another website December drill.
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My wife shot this 25 yards 2 hands.

We are bullseye shooters.

David

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At my very best I could hold about a 6” 5 round group at 25 yards off hand. Soda cans were probably 3 of 4, and I would still hit them with some regularity at 50 yards (probably 1 of 3 or 4). I’m not old old, but I’ve discovered I do need glasses. Focusing on the FSP is much more difficult these days. I can still hit the head of a B27 4 of 5 times at 25 yards. At any rate, i have been hit or miss on range time over the years, but I’ve put multiple 10s of thousands of rounds down range. OP I can say you’re doing alright if you’ve only been shooting a year. Move that distance back some, and you’ll get better.
 
25 yard accuracy

Generations of gunwriters held the opinion that a (non-match) pistol that would do 2-2.5" groups at 25 yards was a good, accurate pistol.

Cheap talk aside, 25 yards is a looooong way to shoot a pistol hand-held,...
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Not sure what you consider cheap talk, but 25yds isn't even remotely a long way to shoot a pistol, hand held. It's a long way for defensive style rapid fire shooting, but its not at all a long way for other kinds of pistol shooting.

and, despite a heavy focus here on defensive shooting and equipment, all handgunning aspects are open for discussion, unless you add specific qualifiers.
Any pistol that can't shoot 1.5 inches at 25 yards is a very poor one.
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Really? I'll disagree with that. Last time I took my Father's Government Model out, my best 5 shot group was just over 2". One ragged hole. That's plenty good in my book.
 
I'm not much of a paper puncher but I can hit Coke cans at 25 yards more often than not. One hand no prop. I used to have a .38 special I could bust gallon milk jugs with at 100 yards so don't say a pistol isn't capable.
 
Just to make sure all is disclosed. The Valor and PM-9 that shot targets above both have Burris FF III dot sights, and the 3.5" officers model I used the CT laser grip for the sight.

This is my best with a 1 7/8" LW 38 special using full power wadcutters at 25 yards.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=107212&d=1521811807

https://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=107212&d=1521811807

My wife and I shoot silhouettes with handguns. Up to 100 yards both iron sights and scope. Her last score was 17 out of 40 with a Buckmark 22 and a 2X scope. Best I have done is 37 with a scoped Ruger Super Redhawk in 44 mag.

David
 
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Am of opinion the op is doing extremely well with their limited experience. Trying longer ranges may be very useful in practicing trigger/sight control. Gotta believe there are plenty of pistols capable of 1.5 in groups at 25 yds when shooting from a rest. When younger, my eyesight used to be good enough to check that.

However for self defense practice, at 3,5 and 7 yds am only keeping top of pistol in "sight".
 
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