.25 acp head shot

Status
Not open for further replies.
A

Amin Parker

New member
Hi all.

I have heard of incidents/rumours/stories where a fmj .25acp round failed to penetrate a skull in a shooting. I guess angle would have a lot to do with it but surely the round should be able to deliver a one shot stop if delivered to the head at short range.

What are your opinions
 
There are documented cases of practically every caliber failing to penetrate the skull cavity especially if the round is delivered high on the head, say eyebrows up.

It's one of many reasons head shots aren't the guaranteed stop many think they are. Shoot COM, and understand that there is no such thing as a guaranteed one shot stop.
 
As you said, a lot depends on the angle and the location of the hit. The frontal part of the human skull (forehead area) is very hard and rounded, which does have the effect of causing bullets to simply bounce off. I've read of cases of .357 Magnum doing this, so it isn't just limited to mouse gun calibers.

Shoot COM, and understand that there is no such thing as a guaranteed one shot stop.
Click to expand...

... short of a direct hit from a 60mm mortar shell :D .
 
I wouldn't go for a head shot, too small of a target. Go center of mass. I was privy to an accident at an Arizona range some years back where there was horseplay going on and the gun (a .25 Raven) was discharged and the bullet penetrated the victim's sternum and then veered off into the heart. The guy was dead in less than a minute. Very tragic but it underscores the stopping power of the .25 auto.
 
We had three people shot in one week in one jurisdiction I worked in, two with .32 ACP and one with 9x19mm, all FMJ, and all failed to penetrate the skull. It happens, more than one might think.
 
I have personally seen some spectacular failures to stop with many calibres.

I was just curious about a head shot with a 25acp
 
"The Westies" was a gang of NY thugs who the Gambino crime family used for murder for hire. Their main hit man, Mickey Featherstone, used a 25ACP as his murder weapon of choice and the head shot was his default method. A friend told me that a .25,, if it penetrates the skull, will bounce off the inner walls, causing grievous damage. Whether there is any truth to this is unknown to me. I'm sticking with an MK40 as my usual carry weapon with a 380 my minimum.
 
This discussion underscore the need to work on shot placement with whatever you carry. There was an article posted on one of the chat lines a couple of weeks ago about a BG taking four slugs from a NY state trooper, and he lived. Bet he was real uncomfortable, though.

I guess that's why the SD gurus emphazise carrying the largest calibur you can comfortably use. So, given the sudden understanding you need to defend yourself, a huge shot of adrinelen (sp?) and raw nerves, you can see why their mantra is drill, practice, COM. It all comes down to how quickly you can put a lot of lead into the center of the target.

It is amazing to find the number of CCs that go to the range and "target" shoot. I've talked to a number of CC'ers at my club about drill and practice, and got admissions they are kinda embarrassed to "play gunfighter" with their friends looking on.
 
A .25 to the head.....

Can result in an instant stop. It can also result in a complete failure. History shows the odds are not in your favor.

The head is a fairly small target, nearly always in constant motion, and having many complex curves, all of which tend to deflect bullets (especially small caliber ones) more than any other part of the body. When one gets in, it usually works, but there have been failures of that as well.

There is no magic bullet. There is no absolute, works every single time, never fails, caliber or shot placement for a one shot stop. At least not in an easily portable firearm. Maybe a 90mm recoilless rifle, but not a common handgun, or even a common rifle. There have been failures of everything. But using bigger bullets, and COM aiming, multiple rounds, etc., the failure rate goes way down.

All guns can kill. Even the smallest. If conditions are just right, they can kill instantly. However, even though we try our best to create those conditions, it can't be counted on 100% of the time.

Mob hit men relying on very small calibers and head shots may be true, but that is a completely different situation than a defensive shooting, and the same dynamics do not apply.
 
While working security at an event, a friend of mine was shot five times by a teen aged gangbanger with a Raven Arms .25. Two of the rounds didn't make it through his leather jacket. My friend got to the kid and broke his arm in the process of disarming him. The kid went to jail. my friend was back to work in three days.
 
There are documented cases of practically every caliber failing to penetrate the skull cavity especially if the round is delivered high on the head, say eyebrows up.

It's one of many reasons head shots aren't the guaranteed stop many think they are. Shoot COM, and understand that there is no such thing as a guaranteed one shot stop.
Click to expand...

+1. I wouldn't count on carrying a .25 and assume that a head shot will drop the attacker.

Not to mention that typically you want to shoot center of mass and a head shot isn't a shot that I'd plan on taking, or making.
 
The weirdest case I ever heard of was in D.C. A man was shot with a FMJ round, right between the eyes. The bullet did not go into the brain, but travelled around inside the skull, exiting at the back of the head. He walked into the hospital complaining of a headache, and walked out two days later after minor surgery. .25 Cal.? Nope, .45 ACP.

Jim
 
During the "PURGE" Josef Stalin was resposible for in the 1930's, he executed millions of people he thought a threat to his power. One of his execution team shot 250 people a day, each individually. To keep noise at a minimum one executioner used a 25ACP. He shot over 8,000 fellow citizens in the head with this caliber. Proof positive it does work.
 
This is very interesting. As far as velocity and a fmj from a 25acp goes it does have enough to penetrate a skull.

I have a Beretta 950b that i always have in my pocket as a bug. I always thought of it as a contact weapon ( to be used not more that 30cm from attacker )

I personally think 22lr is deadly. I have personally defended myself with one but always wondered if the 25acp could penetrate the skull from extreme close range. I guess now i know that it can
 
During the "PURGE" Josef Stalin was resposible for in the 1930's, he executed millions of people he thought a threat to his power. One of his execution team shot 250 people a day, each individually. To keep noise at a minimum one executioner used a 25ACP. He shot over 8,000 fellow citizens in the head with this caliber. Proof positive it does work.
Click to expand...

Probably at contact distance.

At that range even a blank can be lethal.

A bunch of 10,000 PSI+ gas into the head is NOT conducive to survival.

The brain is very soft material.
They have to be treated to hold together enough to even be handled.
 
Baron Manfred Von Richthofen (The Red Baron) was hit in the head with a machinegun bullet and survived. His skull deflected the bullet. Skulls are made to protect the brain and often do a much better job of it than people expect them to.

Any pistol bullet can penetrate a skull from the right angle and under the proper conditions. Any pistol bullet can be deflected by the skull if the angle is wrong and the conditions aren't conducive.
 
Jim Keenan, I remember reading about a similar problem with a large bore rifle round hitting an elephant in the head. Fortunately he had a back up shooter. .
In shooting dangerous game more hunters are now using flat nosed bullets since they deflect less. BTW CCI makes a nice flat point 22lr which is also very effective according to all I've spoken to.
 
"To keep noise at a minimum one executioner used a 25ACP. He shot over 8,000 fellow citizens in the head with this caliber. Proof positive it does work."

Soviet practice was to execute prisoners with a shot to the BACK of the head, in the notch where the spine and skull come together.

A shot at this location penetrates the skull/spine at one of its weakest points and virtually guarantees destruction of the medulla oblongota, which anyone who has had an anatomy class knows is the primary control center for essential functions like respiration and cardiac function.

This area of the skull isn't particularly challenging to breach.
 
surely the round should be able to deliver a one shot stop if delivered to the head at short range.
Click to expand...

No such thing as a sure thing. Especially when it comes to how a bullet will effect it's target. Just google brain injuries to see a lot of miraculous stuff people have survived, and some of them didn't even know it happened.

Yes, I know a man who lost his son due to a head shot from a .22 LR, and I've also seen the pictures where 9mm rounds have gone around the skull instead of though it.

You never know how lethal something is going to be, or even if it's going to stop someone. And unless you're full time job is training for such things you really don't know for sure that you can make a head shot at a moving target in an adrenaline fueled situation, even at short ranges.
 
A friend of mine son killed himself with a little .25acp. He shot himself in his mouth and the bullet followed the contour of his skull and I think it hit his spine killing him instantly, but it never exited and they had an open casket funeral.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top