.25-06 vs the .243
- Thread starter gmarr
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Too many try to substitute a larger caliber to make up for poor shooting skills and shot choices.
It usually results in them becoming an even worse shot due to the extra recoil
There are many people who have no problems killing deer and hogs with 223's, so suggesting a 243 isn't enough at 200 yds is not realistic
The Verminator
Moderator
Just get the .308 and be sure.
Why gamble?
Why gamble?
44 AMP said:
Comparing 100 grain bullets isn't apples to apples as the bullets even of the same type won't have similar BC and SD numbers. I can't question your data as I don't have access to my library back home right now, but the data I do have access to shows the .25-06 is about 200-250 fps faster with equal weight bullets, I used data from Hogdon and Wolfe Publishing as that is what I have access to. Wolfe aka loaddata.com showed a 193 fps difference between the two using a 22" barreled .243 vs. 24" .25-06. This would show a 6-7.5% velocity and 14% energy advantage to the .25-06.
At 200 yards a .25-06 has less than 5% velocity advantage and has lost 44% of the extra energy it had at the muzzle compared to the .243 Win. At 400 yards the .243 and .25-06 are ballistic twins. After 400 yards the .243 Win is getting there faster, flatter, has less drift, and with more retained energy than the .25-06. The gap isn't large but it only gets larger as the range increases in favor of the .243 Win.
Like I said before the .243 Win is more versatile than a .25-06 simply because it has a wider variety of bullets for different applications. That doesn't make the .243 Win a better choice for a hunter, but it leaves a lot more doors open than the .25-06 does. There is no perfect choice as either one has advantages and disadvantages depending on the shooters criteria, like long action vs. short, more ammunition choices vs. less, and so on.
As far as the .243 vs. .244/6mm Rem that's for another day but Remington screwd it up for sure.
Sigh. It seems you can't discuss the merits of two cartridges without somebody insulting the marksmanship of those that prefer the larger caliber.
We're talking about a 25-06 with 120 grain loads. If you can't shoot a 25-06 because if the "extra recoil", you probably won't be able to shoot a 243 either.
I don't think anybody has said the 243 "isn't enough". A bunch of people have said the 25-06 is better, because it is.
tahunua001
New member
I don't think he was referring to the 243 and 25-06 directly. when taken in context with the line he quoted, where a person claimed that 243 was not enough should the shot be botched, the 25-06 offers such little improvement over the 243 that the 25-06 would still likely fail to drop an animal if shot in the same place as the botched 243 hit. in that instance we are talking about upgrading to a significantly superior cartridge like 270 or 30-06 and those do provide a great deal more recoil than 243. I once knew a guy that claimed that 300 win mag was the greatest deer cartridge ever created and laughed in my face when I told him I'd hunted with a 243 my entire life, then he got pretty quiet over the next couple years as he relayed story after story about maiming and losing deer and I always seemed to get my deer. in that instance I think it's a classic case of shooter trying to compensate for poor skills by buying a bigger faster bullet when he probably should have moved to a smaller caliber and worked on his flinch.
nowadays I hunt with everything under the sun, some a lot more powerful than 243, others a lot less powerful. if you are losing deer because you're not hitting them in the best spot, you either need to work on your marksmanship skills or start experimenting with alternative ammo with better performance.
nowadays I hunt with everything under the sun, some a lot more powerful than 243, others a lot less powerful. if you are losing deer because you're not hitting them in the best spot, you either need to work on your marksmanship skills or start experimenting with alternative ammo with better performance.
The Verminator
Moderator
I think we can all agree that the 25-06 is more powerful than the .243 and that the 25-06 120 grain bullet is going to offer significantly better penetration than the .243 100 grain.
The argument that it's not enough to make a difference is highly speculative and, I think, wishful thinking. There are certainly possibilities where a few inches of penetration and thus an extension of the area of heavy tissue damage could make a difference.
I mentioned one earlier in the thread from my own experience with a .243 failure on a SMALL deer.
Since a 120 grain bullet will penetrate better, break bone better and thus do more damage than a 100 grain bullet.....I think we can all see how a raking shot from the rear quarter that has to pass through most of the paunch to get to the lungs could fail in the .243 while the significantly heavier 25-06 bullet would carry through and bring killing damage into the heart/lung area.
Now the deer I killed WAS recovered (mostly by luck) but I sure could have used a little more power and penetration on that particular shot.
That little 100 grain .243 almost STOPPED in the paunch and then I'd have lost the deer for sure. As it was he went well over 100 yards into heavy swamp with no blood trail. One lung showed damage that I would call minimal. And, over some years of using it, this was not the only time I found the .243 to be a little lacking in penetration and tissue damage.
That was a small deer. What would happen on the same shot with a big pig?
The argument that it's not enough to make a difference is highly speculative and, I think, wishful thinking. There are certainly possibilities where a few inches of penetration and thus an extension of the area of heavy tissue damage could make a difference.
I mentioned one earlier in the thread from my own experience with a .243 failure on a SMALL deer.
Since a 120 grain bullet will penetrate better, break bone better and thus do more damage than a 100 grain bullet.....I think we can all see how a raking shot from the rear quarter that has to pass through most of the paunch to get to the lungs could fail in the .243 while the significantly heavier 25-06 bullet would carry through and bring killing damage into the heart/lung area.
Now the deer I killed WAS recovered (mostly by luck) but I sure could have used a little more power and penetration on that particular shot.
That little 100 grain .243 almost STOPPED in the paunch and then I'd have lost the deer for sure. As it was he went well over 100 yards into heavy swamp with no blood trail. One lung showed damage that I would call minimal. And, over some years of using it, this was not the only time I found the .243 to be a little lacking in penetration and tissue damage.
That was a small deer. What would happen on the same shot with a big pig?
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tahunua001
New member
I'm going to go ahead and say it wont. I've hit plenty of deer with 100 grain 243 bullets and have gotten pass throughs on nearly every one. however when I move up to 25 and 6.5 diameter bullets in the 120 grain range I do not get pass throughs, not a single one. good wound tracts and some devastating tissue damage but no penetration beyond what a 243 can do and penetration against whitetail is moot and nearly a nonsequitor. a 9mm can make a pass through shot on a deer skull at 50 yards, I know this because I've done it. that same load will make it through 8 inches of meat and heavy bone at 50 yards. I also know this because I have personally done it. 8 inches is all it takes to bring down a white tail, and anything including 380 and 22LR can do it, it's a matter of being a good enough shot to pull it off. I am not advocating 380 and 22LR for deer, but obviously you don't need superior penetration unless you're the moron that shooting at deer that are walking straight towards you or running away from you(I've gotten a couple deer maimed in that fashion too).
I'd have to ask...why take that shot in the first place? On a hunting trip years ago, here I was a guest, one of the hunters gut shot a deer inside 100 yds with a 220gr 30-06. We never found it...
I also shot a smallish deer with a Marlin 30-30 at just over 100 yds...DRT. Next day my hunting buddy hit one right in the kill zone with a 7mm Mag and it ran about 100 yds.
I find it funny that people still think it takes ”power" to kill game animals of any kind. I guess it does take a certain amount of "power" to supply the penetration and expansion of the bullet being used. Can someone please quantify with scientific data how much power is necessary to make an effective hunting cartridge?
I've killed pronghorn at less than 250 yards with the .338-06 and .375 Ruger and if power was required to kill I had it in spades. Both of those animals ran better than 50 yards after being hit. I've killed both pronghorn and white tail deer with a 6mm-222 Rem Mag and it dropped the animals in their tracks out to 300 yards with ease with less than 700 ft-lbs of energy. While my .338-06 with 200 grain bullets had over 2200 ft-lbs of energy and failed to drop the animal in its tracks.
I've killed pronghorn at less than 250 yards with the .338-06 and .375 Ruger and if power was required to kill I had it in spades. Both of those animals ran better than 50 yards after being hit. I've killed both pronghorn and white tail deer with a 6mm-222 Rem Mag and it dropped the animals in their tracks out to 300 yards with ease with less than 700 ft-lbs of energy. While my .338-06 with 200 grain bullets had over 2200 ft-lbs of energy and failed to drop the animal in its tracks.
It's all too easy to blame the caliber/cartridge for bad bullet choices, or poor shooting/shot placement.
Although it's easy for the unwary to select a varmint bullet instead of the common 100 grain factory round that is designed for deer and similar-sized critters. The .243 Win, with the right bullets for the game, is an excellent killer. (Fortunately, the big-box stores sell mostly 100 grain rounds, at least in this area.)
Handloaders may wish to use Barnes solid copper or Hornady gilding metal bullets in 80+ grains. They often penetrate better (fully expanded) than 100 grain factory rounds/bullets. They lose less than 3% of their mass, and expand fully. Having greater muzzle velocity, they often retain more energy than most soft lead core bullets. Trajectory is somewhat flatter as well.
Our family/friends have had excellent results with monolithic bullets in .243 Win (and both .270 Win, 30-06). I also like the fact that no lead dust and small particles are transferred to meat.
Bonded core bullets and Nosler Partitions are also quite effective in .243 Win.
Although it's easy for the unwary to select a varmint bullet instead of the common 100 grain factory round that is designed for deer and similar-sized critters. The .243 Win, with the right bullets for the game, is an excellent killer. (Fortunately, the big-box stores sell mostly 100 grain rounds, at least in this area.)
Handloaders may wish to use Barnes solid copper or Hornady gilding metal bullets in 80+ grains. They often penetrate better (fully expanded) than 100 grain factory rounds/bullets. They lose less than 3% of their mass, and expand fully. Having greater muzzle velocity, they often retain more energy than most soft lead core bullets. Trajectory is somewhat flatter as well.
Our family/friends have had excellent results with monolithic bullets in .243 Win (and both .270 Win, 30-06). I also like the fact that no lead dust and small particles are transferred to meat.
Bonded core bullets and Nosler Partitions are also quite effective in .243 Win.
The Verminator
Moderator
And you ask....
First of all.....it's not a gut shot.....it's a quartering shot to the lungs. It's killed millions of deer and other game and will kill millions more, no doubt.
I'm not surprised that your gut shot failed. That shot will fail with any caliber and result in a lost deer.
Why did I take the shot? For the same reason anybody else does.
I took the shot to get the deer. The shot was aimed into the heart/lung area and did get there.....it's just that the .243 didn't have the power to do the major damage that should have been done.
The bullet reached the lung area but only damaged one lung slightly......thus the near loss of the deer.
Over the years I've done that same shot many times with the .270, the '06, the 7X57 Mauser and once with a .35 Remington.
All resulted in venison with no problems.
Yes, I quit the .243 for deer after a few instances where it didn't have QUITE ENOUGH oomph. It killed well with behind the shoulder shots from the side where penetration was not an issue. It's great for deer if you get the perfect shot.
I don't shoot pigs, but I understand that a big one will offer MORE resistance to the bullet due to heavier hide, muscle and bone.
I didn't say it was a gut shot...but since you brought it up, where did you hit that deer? What bullet were you using?
Go back and read again...I didn't shoot the deer that was lost.
If you're taking a deep quartering away shot, just how do you reliably expect to hit both lungs...the "shock wave"?
The Verminator
Moderator
I had a shot once at about 200 yards with the Remington CoreLokt .243 100 grain bullet (on a small deer of about 120 pounds). It was a quartering shot that hit the left flank and ranged up into the right lung. It stopped in the lung and had expended most of its energy before getting to the lung.
It really didn't wreck the lung and cause traumatic shock as one would wish. Heart and left lung showed no damage. That little deer traveled over 100 yards and probably would have gone farther if somebody had been in hot pursuit.
As it was, he decided to lie down and rest......and, of course, he died there.
But.....this was not satisfactory performance as far as I was concerned. He fled into heavy swamp and I was lucky to find him--ZERO blood trail--just blind luck.
I had a few other disappointing experiences with the .243.......where the bullet hit bones and didn't stay together as well as it should have or just plain didn't seem to destroy as much tissue as one would like to see for a quick kill.
And.......I suspect that some big pigs with thick hide and heavy bones could be even MORE challenging to the limited penetration capability of the little .243.
So......I have reason for my skepticism. I'd want a little more power if I might have to take a pig of substantial size and, as I said before, if I can't have a .30 cal. in a 180 grain bullet......I, at least, want the 120 grain of the 25-06 in the hunting the OP mentions.
It really didn't wreck the lung and cause traumatic shock as one would wish. Heart and left lung showed no damage. That little deer traveled over 100 yards and probably would have gone farther if somebody had been in hot pursuit.
As it was, he decided to lie down and rest......and, of course, he died there.
But.....this was not satisfactory performance as far as I was concerned. He fled into heavy swamp and I was lucky to find him--ZERO blood trail--just blind luck.
I had a few other disappointing experiences with the .243.......where the bullet hit bones and didn't stay together as well as it should have or just plain didn't seem to destroy as much tissue as one would like to see for a quick kill.
And.......I suspect that some big pigs with thick hide and heavy bones could be even MORE challenging to the limited penetration capability of the little .243.
So......I have reason for my skepticism. I'd want a little more power if I might have to take a pig of substantial size and, as I said before, if I can't have a .30 cal. in a 180 grain bullet......I, at least, want the 120 grain of the 25-06 in the hunting the OP mentions.
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