243 Win. barrel life question ?
- Thread starter WIN1886
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For minute of deer, yep. It's really not nitpicking, if you're developing precision handloads.
I'm in disbelief when I read posts from guys that are nit-picking their handloads to 1/4", when they're using a red-dot with a 4 minute dot, or a thick crosshair reticle.
There's no way to maintain an absolutely precise POA with something like that. As Bart said earlier, it's a finite point. Trying to eyeball the "center" of a 4 minute dot on a target is nothing but a guess.
REALLY Bart b
Really ! I mean really your going to say all barrels will shoot the same as long as there made to the same tolerances . Hum so a Pinto is just as fast and can coner as well as a Lamborghni . You know ,as long as there made to the same tolerances .
Of coures the products will work the same if there made to the exact standards tolerances .One cost $5,000 and the other cost $300,000 . Thats because there not made to the same standards and tolerances .
I started the post with , this is a general coment . I just wanted to help the guy undrestand what compitition shooters mean when they say there barrel only last 1500 rounds . I was not trying to make a blanket statement that all SS barrels with button rifling are the best thing ever and all others should not apply . Thats why I said these numbers are general please don't slam me on them .
If you can afford and are buying the barrels or the guns that are setting the records and winning the matchs your talking about . your not worried about barrel life like the author of this post .
The thread is about barrel life and I believe my post is accurate .
Really ! I mean really your going to say all barrels will shoot the same as long as there made to the same tolerances . Hum so a Pinto is just as fast and can coner as well as a Lamborghni . You know ,as long as there made to the same tolerances .
Of coures the products will work the same if there made to the exact standards tolerances .One cost $5,000 and the other cost $300,000 . Thats because there not made to the same standards and tolerances .I started the post with , this is a general coment . I just wanted to help the guy undrestand what compitition shooters mean when they say there barrel only last 1500 rounds . I was not trying to make a blanket statement that all SS barrels with button rifling are the best thing ever and all others should not apply . Thats why I said these numbers are general please don't slam me on them .
If you can afford and are buying the barrels or the guns that are setting the records and winning the matchs your talking about . your not worried about barrel life like the author of this post .
The thread is about barrel life and I believe my post is accurate .
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Metal god, yes, all barrels made to the same bore, groove and rifling specs, as well as chamber specs, shoot the same bullets with equal accuracy.
And a Pinto with all of its parts made to zero tolerance will still be the same car with the same engine, drive train, suspension system, profile and weight. A Lamborghini's engine, drive train, suspension system, profile and weight, even with its parts tolerances on the sloppy side, is what makes it faster and corner better than a Pinto. It's not a parts fit issue, it's parts shape, size and function issue between a Pinto and Lamgorghini. Last I checked, there was a huge difference.
And barrels wear out regardless of how much their owner pays for them or worries about their life. Never known a barrel to care; either way.
And a Pinto with all of its parts made to zero tolerance will still be the same car with the same engine, drive train, suspension system, profile and weight. A Lamborghini's engine, drive train, suspension system, profile and weight, even with its parts tolerances on the sloppy side, is what makes it faster and corner better than a Pinto. It's not a parts fit issue, it's parts shape, size and function issue between a Pinto and Lamgorghini. Last I checked, there was a huge difference.
And barrels wear out regardless of how much their owner pays for them or worries about their life. Never known a barrel to care; either way.
Metal god sez:
The 7 or 8 Hart barrels I wore out shooting .308 Win. ammo all had the same 1:11 twist, bore, .2990" and .3078" groove diameters. There was probably a .00003" spread in the bore and groove, but that didn't seem to make any difference. I shot the same loads with different lots of bullets, powders and primers and they all had the same excellent accuracy level. So barrels can be made "all the same" for all practical purposes and they'll all shoot the same ammo very well.
I'm convinced that if you handed a rifle to 10 different folks who reload ammo asking each to develop a load for a given bullet for that rifle, there would be 10 different loads claimed to be the most accurate. No two receipies would have the same powder type/weight, bullet seating depth, case make and neck tension. There would be a lot more recipies if they could pick any bullet they wanted.
Yes, they're not all made the same. But even with several 10,000ths inch difference in bore and groove diameters as well as an inch or two in twist rates, I've watched a couple dozen folks along with me shoot the same handloaded .308 Win. ammo (new cases, metered charges 3/10ths grain spread) in as many different barrels all shooting 1/2 MOA at 600 yards. Most interesting to me was the fact that groove diameters in those barrels had quite a range; I asked them what their barrel specs were for data on how that new bullet performed. Groove diameters were from .3068 to .3080 inch and the 155-gr. bullets were .3084 inch. Bore diameters ranged from .2980 to .2995 inch.
The 7 or 8 Hart barrels I wore out shooting .308 Win. ammo all had the same 1:11 twist, bore, .2990" and .3078" groove diameters. There was probably a .00003" spread in the bore and groove, but that didn't seem to make any difference. I shot the same loads with different lots of bullets, powders and primers and they all had the same excellent accuracy level. So barrels can be made "all the same" for all practical purposes and they'll all shoot the same ammo very well.
I'm convinced that if you handed a rifle to 10 different folks who reload ammo asking each to develop a load for a given bullet for that rifle, there would be 10 different loads claimed to be the most accurate. No two receipies would have the same powder type/weight, bullet seating depth, case make and neck tension. There would be a lot more recipies if they could pick any bullet they wanted.
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from tobnpr:
This is possible because one uses subtle references for assuring the sights are aligned and lined up with the target. In fact, the 'obviously large' target becomes effectively much smaller when these subtle references.
Not sure what is meant by "nothing but a guess" but I can say unequivocably that I have done 1.5 moa and better with open sights on a rifle. I also know that many pistol shooters routinely turn in sub 2" groups when aiming at a 5" diameter bullseye at 25 and 50 yards. I used to be able to do that, but my eyes and muscle tone are no longer up to that task,
This is possible because one uses subtle references for assuring the sights are aligned and lined up with the target. In fact, the 'obviously large' target becomes effectively much smaller when these subtle references.
Here's a typical aperture front sight with a bubble level used on NRA match rifles in high power matches:
Here's the sight picture seen through a .040 inch (1.0 mm) aperture rear sight as the shooter focuses his eye on the front sight:
The front aperture can be changed to the size best suited for each person; some want more white around the bull than this one shows. Naturally, the better eyes one has the more easily they'll see a 1/4 MOA error in alignment.
The aiming bull subtends 6.5 MOA at 200 yards, 6.3 MOA at 300, 6.0 MOA at 600, 5.5 at 800, 4.9 at 900 and 4.4 MOA at 1000 yards.
Top classified competitors will call their shots within 1/3 MOA of where the bullet actually goes (in calm winds, perfect conditions ) with 1/2 MOA ammo and equipment. With a 16 to 25 power scope, within 3/16 to 1/4 MOA.
Below is a post front sight with a 6-o'clock hold on a bullseye. It shows qute accurate what the 600 yard NRA high power target bullseye looks like as seen through a .0595" aperture on a National Match rear sight used on M1 and M14 rifles with the shooter's eye focused on the front sight.
Top classified competitors will call their shots within 5/8 MOA of where the bullet strikes. Note the bullseye looks fuzzier and maybe a bit smaller than the one in the aperture front sight and smaller aperture rear sight. The same 36 inch bullseye is used with both front sight types.
Maybe I'll make some pictures showing a thick crosshair reticule in a scope as it appears on a 100 yard target. One will show perfect alignment of the reticule dead center on the target. The other showing what the sight picture looks like with a 1/4 or 1/3 MOA error.
Here's the sight picture seen through a .040 inch (1.0 mm) aperture rear sight as the shooter focuses his eye on the front sight:
The front aperture can be changed to the size best suited for each person; some want more white around the bull than this one shows. Naturally, the better eyes one has the more easily they'll see a 1/4 MOA error in alignment.
The aiming bull subtends 6.5 MOA at 200 yards, 6.3 MOA at 300, 6.0 MOA at 600, 5.5 at 800, 4.9 at 900 and 4.4 MOA at 1000 yards.
Top classified competitors will call their shots within 1/3 MOA of where the bullet actually goes (in calm winds, perfect conditions ) with 1/2 MOA ammo and equipment. With a 16 to 25 power scope, within 3/16 to 1/4 MOA.
Below is a post front sight with a 6-o'clock hold on a bullseye. It shows qute accurate what the 600 yard NRA high power target bullseye looks like as seen through a .0595" aperture on a National Match rear sight used on M1 and M14 rifles with the shooter's eye focused on the front sight.
Top classified competitors will call their shots within 5/8 MOA of where the bullet strikes. Note the bullseye looks fuzzier and maybe a bit smaller than the one in the aperture front sight and smaller aperture rear sight. The same 36 inch bullseye is used with both front sight types.
Maybe I'll make some pictures showing a thick crosshair reticule in a scope as it appears on a 100 yard target. One will show perfect alignment of the reticule dead center on the target. The other showing what the sight picture looks like with a 1/4 or 1/3 MOA error.
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holy cow can this get anymore off topic . I read the original thead as asking , does a 243 barrel wear out faster then a 223 using standard factory loads .he/she did not say factory loads but I'd bet money thats what they meant .
Now dont you all start getting ultra techncal on us . ( well metal god do you mean hornady blah blah blah this, or do you mean remington blah blah blah that ) lets just for the sake of this thread use wikipedia's numbers so we can get an answer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.243_Winchester
Now dont you all start getting ultra techncal on us . ( well metal god do you mean hornady blah blah blah this, or do you mean remington blah blah blah that ) lets just for the sake of this thread use wikipedia's numbers so we can get an answer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.243_Winchester
Interesting table, not that far off, but I will state what I heard from one of the few 243 shooters I met. This HM shooter, pretty good one, I was talking to him about his 243 barrel life. He replaces his barrels from 700 to 800 rounds. Maybe he pushes his rounds harder than those other guys.
Slamfire, first time I saw the .243 used in competition, David Tubb was using one in a match at the NRA Whittington Center. He said if luck was with him, he would get 1400 rounds through it before its accuracy dropped below his standards. His first one in a Schneider barrel went about that far so he had no hopes the one used then would last any longer.
There are some folks shooting the 6.5x.284 hot enough to rebarrel at 500 rounds. Long range folks I know using that round get more barrel life.
There are some folks shooting the 6.5x.284 hot enough to rebarrel at 500 rounds. Long range folks I know using that round get more barrel life.
Guy I talked to was Wayne Forsechee? a Georgia shooter. He was replacing his barrel on a short schedule.
I would not want to shoot a barrel with such a short life in highpower competition. Lets say you start shooting in March, by the time you get to Perry your barrel either is, or is about to, start blowing chunks. If it chunks during the Nationals then you have wasted the year. If it chunks before, you have a lot of load development and zero's to figure out in short order.
I have replaced 30 caliber barrels just because I was getting worried that the "fliers" were due to high round count, when it was probably me. But when you start getting close to the end of the predicted lifetime of a barrel, that works on your mind.
It is a total waste of time and gas money to find out during a match that you should have replaced the barrel after the last match.
I would not want to shoot a barrel with such a short life in highpower competition. Lets say you start shooting in March, by the time you get to Perry your barrel either is, or is about to, start blowing chunks. If it chunks during the Nationals then you have wasted the year. If it chunks before, you have a lot of load development and zero's to figure out in short order.
I have replaced 30 caliber barrels just because I was getting worried that the "fliers" were due to high round count, when it was probably me. But when you start getting close to the end of the predicted lifetime of a barrel, that works on your mind.
It is a total waste of time and gas money to find out during a match that you should have replaced the barrel after the last match.
Slamfire, some folks take extra barrels with them for their trip to the Nationals. Especially if they'll shoot 2 or 3 regionals on the way there and back. Along with a barrel wrench and action vise, it's easy to clock one in to the witness mark set when that barrel was fitted earlier.
I and others have not seen a need to change loads nor work up a load for a new barrel. As long as the bore and groove dimensions are within a few 10-thousandths, the same lot of ammo shoots the same. This happened with ten .308 Win. barrels and four .30-.338 magnum barrels. Most interesting was with a couple of Palma rifle barrels chambered for the .308 Win. Tightest one had a .2980" bore and .3070" groove diameter. Loosest one had .2995" bore and .3080" groove. Both chambers had slightly different leade length for different bullet seating depths. Both shot the same loads equally accurate from 600 through 1000.
I and others have not seen a need to change loads nor work up a load for a new barrel. As long as the bore and groove dimensions are within a few 10-thousandths, the same lot of ammo shoots the same. This happened with ten .308 Win. barrels and four .30-.338 magnum barrels. Most interesting was with a couple of Palma rifle barrels chambered for the .308 Win. Tightest one had a .2980" bore and .3070" groove diameter. Loosest one had .2995" bore and .3080" groove. Both chambers had slightly different leade length for different bullet seating depths. Both shot the same loads equally accurate from 600 through 1000.