warbirdlover
New member
Bart B.
So my statement was pretty much correct?
So my statement was pretty much correct?
243 Win. barrel life question ?
- Thread starter WIN1886
- Start date
Warbirdlover, your statement about the .264 Win. Mag.'s barrel life is exactly correct. Mine lasted 640 rounds in long range matches. If I'd been better doping the wind back then, I would have shot more good scores with it.
Regarding your comment about barrel life won't get short until you get over 3100 fps mv or so, I don't think so. 6.5x284's don't shoot 140-gr. bullets out near that fast and they get 700 to 800 or so rounds of barrel life. Double rifles in 45, 47, 50, 57 and 60 caliber usually got a new set of barrels after a thousand or so rounds. They shot heavy bullets out at 2000 fps or so, but the Cordite they used was probably the main cause.
Regarding your comment about barrel life won't get short until you get over 3100 fps mv or so, I don't think so. 6.5x284's don't shoot 140-gr. bullets out near that fast and they get 700 to 800 or so rounds of barrel life. Double rifles in 45, 47, 50, 57 and 60 caliber usually got a new set of barrels after a thousand or so rounds. They shot heavy bullets out at 2000 fps or so, but the Cordite they used was probably the main cause.
Varmint shooting and competitive target shooting are very different in the their effects on barrel life. Even if you are camped on a prairie dog town, you are very unlikely to shoot as many rounds as fast as in target competition. Among my many rifle buddies (including a few who have replaced barrels on bolt action rifles) none have done so because the barrel was "shot out" at varmints.
lefteye claims:
Years ago I also thought there was a difference. Then I learned that Sierra Bullets' ballistic tech got the same barrel life in his personal match rifle barrels as the barrels he used to test bullets for accuracy. Both barrel types were from the same company and made to the same specs. Testing for accuracy at Sierra's indoor range, he would grab 10 bullets as they came out of the pointing machine (at about 80 per minute), seat them in full length sized, primed and charged cases, then shoot them 10 to 15 seconds apart (sometimes faster) in their benchrest type rail gun. Then back to the pointing machine, get 10 more bullets then load and test them for the entire production run of bullets lasting a couple of hours or thereabouts. Those .308 Win. test barrels fired 4 to 8 times a minute got the same barrel life as his match rifles in .308 Win. fired 1 shot per minute; about 3000 rounds.
It's not the rate rounds are fired in bolt action rifles, but the amount of powder burned through the chamber's throat per shot that wears out barrels. Hot, over max loads wear out thoats faster than normal max pressure loads. This aside, 30 caliber machine gun barrels firing 8 shots a second (or more) do wear out a lot faster per shot. Hence, the quick-change feature their barrels have. But they're not capable of 1/3 MOA maximum groups at 300 yards, either.
I disagree. So do other top classified competitive shooters. Especially those who are also avid varmint shooters who have their hunting rifles built to the same accuracy level as their match rifles.
Years ago I also thought there was a difference. Then I learned that Sierra Bullets' ballistic tech got the same barrel life in his personal match rifle barrels as the barrels he used to test bullets for accuracy. Both barrel types were from the same company and made to the same specs. Testing for accuracy at Sierra's indoor range, he would grab 10 bullets as they came out of the pointing machine (at about 80 per minute), seat them in full length sized, primed and charged cases, then shoot them 10 to 15 seconds apart (sometimes faster) in their benchrest type rail gun. Then back to the pointing machine, get 10 more bullets then load and test them for the entire production run of bullets lasting a couple of hours or thereabouts. Those .308 Win. test barrels fired 4 to 8 times a minute got the same barrel life as his match rifles in .308 Win. fired 1 shot per minute; about 3000 rounds.
It's not the rate rounds are fired in bolt action rifles, but the amount of powder burned through the chamber's throat per shot that wears out barrels. Hot, over max loads wear out thoats faster than normal max pressure loads. This aside, 30 caliber machine gun barrels firing 8 shots a second (or more) do wear out a lot faster per shot. Hence, the quick-change feature their barrels have. But they're not capable of 1/3 MOA maximum groups at 300 yards, either.
Major Dave comments:
Folks shooting the 7mm-08 in competition got 2 to 3 times the barrel life as the 7mm Rem Mags got. That round's within a couple percent of the same case volume as the 7x57. 7-08's standard SAAMI max pressure is the same as the 7mm Rem Mag; 61,000 PSI. At that peak pressure, 140's from a 7-08 leave at about 2840 fps in SAAMI spec'd chamber and bore/groove/length dimensions. A tighter bore and groove will both raise pressure as well as muzzle velocity; that's the way it is.
What's the actual difference between 46,000 CUP and 60,000 PSI? That's two different pressure measuring systems that don't give the same numbers for equal pressure in the chamber. SAAMI specs for peak pressure in the 7mm Rem Mag's only about 13% higher than the 7x57 Mauser round.
Folks shooting the 7mm-08 in competition got 2 to 3 times the barrel life as the 7mm Rem Mags got. That round's within a couple percent of the same case volume as the 7x57. 7-08's standard SAAMI max pressure is the same as the 7mm Rem Mag; 61,000 PSI. At that peak pressure, 140's from a 7-08 leave at about 2840 fps in SAAMI spec'd chamber and bore/groove/length dimensions. A tighter bore and groove will both raise pressure as well as muzzle velocity; that's the way it is.
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Ridgerunner665
New member
Pressure has next to nothing to do with barrel life...its purely the amount of powder, gas, and residue being pushed through the throat that wears the barrel, or more correctly the throat...as it gets squeezed down to bore diameter.
Heat DOES speed up the process...we all know metal gets softer as it heats up...so shooting fast does increase barrel wear, shooting fast in a 308 may not make much of a difference, but if you compare fast vs. slow shooting with something like a 7mm Rem Mag...you'll notice the difference pretty quick.
Neck length and shoulder angle also come into play...
And yes, the 243 is a bit of a barrel burner, especially with heavy loads of slow burning powder such as Reloder 19.
Heat DOES speed up the process...we all know metal gets softer as it heats up...so shooting fast does increase barrel wear, shooting fast in a 308 may not make much of a difference, but if you compare fast vs. slow shooting with something like a 7mm Rem Mag...you'll notice the difference pretty quick.
Neck length and shoulder angle also come into play...
And yes, the 243 is a bit of a barrel burner, especially with heavy loads of slow burning powder such as Reloder 19.
Jimbob86, exactly what is a "more practically oriented shooter?" Exactly how far in inches do you accept missing your point of aim at 100 yards? 300 yards? 500 yards?
Ridgerunner665, there are barrel makers who know pressure has lots to do with barrel life; they've prooved it beyond resonable doubt.
Ridgerunner665, there are barrel makers who know pressure has lots to do with barrel life; they've prooved it beyond resonable doubt.
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Bart B. said:
First, we have to define point of aim. Lets say, for example, I'm aiming at a crow feeding on a newly planted field. He represents a target maybe 4" wide and 8" tall. I estimate his range at 200 yards. I settle the crosshairs, squeeze the trigger, and see him dissolve in a spray of feathers. I hit the target and that's all I care about.
Another example. I'm sitting in a tree overlooking a bean field. I see a whitetail deer step out of the forest, near a known 300 yard marker. I know that the deer's vital area is a target about 9" across. I settle the crosshairs, squeeze the trigger. The deer takes two steps, lays down, and stops moving. After watching him for 30 minutes, I surmise that he is dead.
In neither case did I miss my point of aim, although the target was quite large in both cases. Now, a benchrest guy might snort at that level of precision, which is really quite imprecise. I don't care where I hit in that 9" circle as long as the bullet collects heart/lungs on the way through.
So, when I'm practicing my marksmanship, for a final, field check, I use a 9" paper plate with no markings. I use that 9" paper plate when I'm shooting with the grandkids. They've got to be able to hit that 9" plate every time, on demand, from field positions. If we were shooting prairie dogs, I'd probably use something like a playing card, or a common 3X5 index card.
That's practical accuracy. The ability to hit a given target at an unknown distance from field positions. I wouldn't even attempt a shot at a whitetail deer from 500 yards. The animal deserves better than that.
Point of aim's where the scope's reticule center (or center of metallic/iron sight picture) is on the target when the round fires. It's a finite point, not an area of several square inches in size.
One may want to have the bullet strike no more than 1 inch from that point. Maybe 2, 3 or 4 inches; perhaps no more than 1/4 or 1/2 inch. Depends on their objectives.
One may want to have the bullet strike no more than 1 inch from that point. Maybe 2, 3 or 4 inches; perhaps no more than 1/4 or 1/2 inch. Depends on their objectives.
PawPaw said it better than I could. Acceptable accuracy is that which will accomplish the task at hand. For me, that a deer's vitals. We practice with gallon milk jugs......
But you want an exact answer, I see. A 1.5 inch group at 100 yards will still print well inside 8 inches at 450...... Abysmal by benchrest standards.... but will still kill bambi dead as a hammer. That's acceptable.
As for of point of aim...... I use the reticle as an aiming reference...... I know where the bullet will hit at various ranges in relation to that- anything under 250 and I'm actually holding under bambi's chest- I know that at 100, that'll take the top of his heart out, 200 the bullet will hit a bit higher... it's not until 300 that I actually make a center hold..... I 'm more concerned with ranging and shooting errors than I am with having a .5 MOA gun and load combination.
Practical accuracy depends much more on the shooter than the equipment: you have to be able to shoot, from field positions, to appreciate the difference between a .5 MOA tack driver and 4MOA AK-47..... someone who can shoot well can take that 4MOA "junker" and put all his shots in an 8 inch circle at 200 ...... someone who can not will be unable to do so with the tack driver.
But you want an exact answer, I see. A 1.5 inch group at 100 yards will still print well inside 8 inches at 450...... Abysmal by benchrest standards.... but will still kill bambi dead as a hammer. That's acceptable.
As for of point of aim...... I use the reticle as an aiming reference...... I know where the bullet will hit at various ranges in relation to that- anything under 250 and I'm actually holding under bambi's chest- I know that at 100, that'll take the top of his heart out, 200 the bullet will hit a bit higher... it's not until 300 that I actually make a center hold..... I 'm more concerned with ranging and shooting errors than I am with having a .5 MOA gun and load combination.
Practical accuracy depends much more on the shooter than the equipment: you have to be able to shoot, from field positions, to appreciate the difference between a .5 MOA tack driver and 4MOA AK-47..... someone who can shoot well can take that 4MOA "junker" and put all his shots in an 8 inch circle at 200 ...... someone who can not will be unable to do so with the tack driver.
Im going to start with , I did not read all of the posts I read a bunch off them and somebody may have said this already . I did not see anybody talking about barrel material or how the barrels are made .
These numbers are general So please no slamming me on my this does that or my that does this .
For pure accuracy you want a stainless steel barrel with Precision Button Rifling and hand lapped. this type of barrel will shoot 1/4 to 1/2 MOA all day long .
Now you can get a pretty accurate rifle that has a hammer forged barrel This type of barrel will shoot 3/4 to 1 MOA all day long
The hammer forged barrel should and will shoot more rounds at it's MOA range then the stainless steel barrel will at it's MOA range .
There are many ways a barrel is made and they all effect accuracy and barrel life . Im sure you've heard that chrome lined barrels on a AR15 will last longer then Chrome moly vanadium . Imagine how long a hammer forged chrome lined barrel would last
I think thats what the competition shooters are saying . If your competition barrel goes from shooting 1/4 MOA to 3/4 MOA your not going to win any matchs . So by there own math that barrel is trashed .
Now by my math thats still a good/great barrel . I don't no about you but if I'm shooting 3 inch groups at 400 yards ,I'm pretty happy .
So the ? to you is how big is the vital zone on your target and how far away will you tend to be from it . Add ! MOA for evey 100 yards . Meaning If your not shooting any farther then 200 yards . A 1 MOA rifle only needs a 2" by 2" target .
These numbers are general So please no slamming me on my this does that or my that does this .
For pure accuracy you want a stainless steel barrel with Precision Button Rifling and hand lapped. this type of barrel will shoot 1/4 to 1/2 MOA all day long .
Now you can get a pretty accurate rifle that has a hammer forged barrel This type of barrel will shoot 3/4 to 1 MOA all day long
The hammer forged barrel should and will shoot more rounds at it's MOA range then the stainless steel barrel will at it's MOA range .
There are many ways a barrel is made and they all effect accuracy and barrel life . Im sure you've heard that chrome lined barrels on a AR15 will last longer then Chrome moly vanadium . Imagine how long a hammer forged chrome lined barrel would last
I think thats what the competition shooters are saying . If your competition barrel goes from shooting 1/4 MOA to 3/4 MOA your not going to win any matchs . So by there own math that barrel is trashed .
Now by my math thats still a good/great barrel . I don't no about you but if I'm shooting 3 inch groups at 400 yards ,I'm pretty happy .
So the ? to you is how big is the vital zone on your target and how far away will you tend to be from it . Add ! MOA for evey 100 yards . Meaning If your not shooting any farther then 200 yards . A 1 MOA rifle only needs a 2" by 2" target .
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phil mcwilliam
New member
Unless you're shooting competitions, or handloading to maximum velocities, you shouldn't over worry about barrel life on a .243. I purchased a Sako 22-250 in 1980 & it took some 5,000 rounds over 30 years before accuracy dropped off & I had it rebarrelled. Groups had opened up to around 1 3/4 inches when I decided to rebarrel.
Note- the 22-250 is considered more of a "barrel burner" than a 243
Note- the 22-250 is considered more of a "barrel burner" than a 243
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Metal god comments:
That's probably because there's no difference in the accuracy different ways of making barrels as well as the types of steels used as long as the bore and groove dimensions are uniform throughout the barrel's length. Some methods are easier to do that others and some barrel makers pay more attention to detail than others. There's as many cut rifled barrels winning matches and setting records as their is button rifled ones these days. And those broach cut service rifle barrels in the early 1960's shot just as accurate as the best button and single point cut rifled barrels as used in competition in that era. Even Winchester's hammer forged 30 caliber match barrels were popular with folks using them in M1 and M1A match conditioned service rifles, but one had to use match bullets larger in diameter than .3085" and excellent accuracy was attained.
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Bart B. said:
That depends, I guess, on the scope. I know (for example) that my Weaver K6 crosshairs cover a measured inch at 100 yards. On the other hand, the front bead on my Winchester 94 subtends (covers) almost 6" at 100 yards. My practice with irons has always been to have the bullet fall into the area that the front sight covers, so that it's "shooting into the front sight". I understand that it's done differently with post-type sights, so that the aiming point floats atop the sight. Still, I much prefer that front sight to have a bead.
But, we're nitpicking at this point, more of an intellectual exercise than a practical discussion. Interesting, nonetheless.
Barrel Life Expectations are Confusing!
Bart B. has it right for precision shooters. Many (most?) of us are not precision shooters, so our experience with barrel life is different.
Part of the confusion arises from the fact that a 1/4 MOA shooter gets really unhappy when the accuracy "degrades" to 3/8 MOA but the guy whose shooting skills make him happy with 3/4 MOA won't notice the change until the barrel degrades even further to say 1/2 MOA. This makes this second guy think his barrel life is longer.
It is indeed, even though the barrel is the same! Expectations and standards make a huge difference.
The additional confusing thing is that, even for the the 1/4 MOA shooter, barrel wear is a somewhat random process, much like the life of incandescent light bulbs. Some die at 1500 hours, other pop in as little as 700, and few die immediately.
Bart B. has it right for precision shooters. Many (most?) of us are not precision shooters, so our experience with barrel life is different.
Part of the confusion arises from the fact that a 1/4 MOA shooter gets really unhappy when the accuracy "degrades" to 3/8 MOA but the guy whose shooting skills make him happy with 3/4 MOA won't notice the change until the barrel degrades even further to say 1/2 MOA. This makes this second guy think his barrel life is longer.
It is indeed, even though the barrel is the same! Expectations and standards make a huge difference.
The additional confusing thing is that, even for the the 1/4 MOA shooter, barrel wear is a somewhat random process, much like the life of incandescent light bulbs. Some die at 1500 hours, other pop in as little as 700, and few die immediately.
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