Nightcrawler
New member
DSA makes FALs in .243, .280, and 7mm-08.
.243 as a Military round.
- Thread starter George Hill
- Start date
Jamie Young
New member
Thought so thanks NightCrawler!
I've only shot a .243 once and that was a few weeks ago. The kick was nothing and I've seen plenty of kids take these into the woods for deer. As far as what I've seen and heard (Deer Hunting) This bullet does some major fragmentation and turns the innerds to mush. Its got more lead (100gr) almost 2x's as much mass to fragment than the 5.56mm.
Again back to Penetration............ Is it better than the M855/SS109 or 7.62 Nato? I don't know!! A 100gr round would be 47gr lighter than the standard Nato Round then throw in a steel core for penetration.
I've only shot a .243 once and that was a few weeks ago. The kick was nothing and I've seen plenty of kids take these into the woods for deer. As far as what I've seen and heard (Deer Hunting) This bullet does some major fragmentation and turns the innerds to mush. Its got more lead (100gr) almost 2x's as much mass to fragment than the 5.56mm.
Again back to Penetration............ Is it better than the M855/SS109 or 7.62 Nato? I don't know!! A 100gr round would be 47gr lighter than the standard Nato Round then throw in a steel core for penetration.
I've thought about this a good bit. I have come to believe the cartridge we are looking for is, or is very close to, the .250-3000 Ackley Improved. What I believe to be ideal is an aprox 6mm projectile that weighs around 100 grains flying out at about 3000 fps. This would give a short cartridge with acceptable long-range energy for markmen and SAW's, allowing the US military to do away with the .30 caliber cartridge for general issue. I do not believe there have been chamber erosion problems with this cartridge.
I was going to have the custom "mid-action" chambered in .250-3000 AI, but then realized that I could achieve similar ballistics through a factory round that fit my receiver perfectly. Since I have the exra length in the mag, why not use it? So, I'm getting a 6mm Remington.
One day, I'll have the .250-3000 AI. I would be perfectly content with a .25 projectile weighing 110 grains, spinning out at 2800 fps from a 19" bl. What's not to like?
I was going to have the custom "mid-action" chambered in .250-3000 AI, but then realized that I could achieve similar ballistics through a factory round that fit my receiver perfectly. Since I have the exra length in the mag, why not use it? So, I'm getting a 6mm Remington.
One day, I'll have the .250-3000 AI. I would be perfectly content with a .25 projectile weighing 110 grains, spinning out at 2800 fps from a 19" bl. What's not to like?
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
They do - but I would like to see a new FAL TYPE rifle... Similar action yet shortened overall and much lightened... Put that in a bullpup configuration and you would have a wonderful rifle.
Correction - the FAL PARATROOPER action that is...
It would really suck to have that long FAL action rod get pushed through your shoulder blade!
Correction - the FAL PARATROOPER action that is...
It would really suck to have that long FAL action rod get pushed through your shoulder blade!
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Handle is a concern? Look at an HK rifle. The charging handle is far forward of the action isnt it? Or the FAMAS - or HK G36 with the handle on top.
Use some imagination. When it comes to Swallows, Coconuts, and Charging handles - its not a matter of where it grips it...
Use some imagination. When it comes to Swallows, Coconuts, and Charging handles - its not a matter of where it grips it...
Jamie Young
New member
George- Are you talking about an African Or European Swallow?
Jamie Young
New member
Can't you get around the case reliability with ramp and mag design?
Yeah, but a relatively straight-walled chamber is more affected by a dirty action and chamber and won't continue to chamber and extract as well as a more tapered case, all other aspects of the design remaining pretty much the same. If it were up to me, I would concentrate on the lockup design and beef up the bolt to take the back thrust of the tapered case. Then load that sucker up to send a 100 gr bullet as close to 3000 fps as possible. An 18 or 20 in barrel would make that a little more of a challenge though.
Jamie Young
New member
I wonder why they haven't been able to come up with a gun that can handle Higher Pressures. Even ditch the Brass case with some other kind of case.
rugerfreak
New member
Why use the .243 when the .308 is based on the same cartridge case??? You would be basically carrying the same weight and volume----so why not choose the more powerfull round???
I guess if I was going into combat-----I'll take the lighter weight rifle and and as many rounds as I can carry-----so that means .223---which is why it was adopted in the first place.
I guess if I was going into combat-----I'll take the lighter weight rifle and and as many rounds as I can carry-----so that means .223---which is why it was adopted in the first place.
Jamie Young
New member
Well thats the easy answer 
If we put our imagination caps on and get into the bullet penetration and Fragmention debate the .243 probable would fragment better than the .308 (If you had a gun that pushed it fast enough) and it would fragment (with 2x's the Mass) of the M193. I think that would end the debate over wound cavities. They did come up with the M855 round but thats already got a bad rap (Mogadeshu) <------- I think I spelled that right.
If we put our imagination caps on and get into the bullet penetration and Fragmention debate the .243 probable would fragment better than the .308 (If you had a gun that pushed it fast enough) and it would fragment (with 2x's the Mass) of the M193. I think that would end the debate over wound cavities. They did come up with the M855 round but thats already got a bad rap (Mogadeshu) <------- I think I spelled that right.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
A 6mm is a good one-shot man-killer at 420 yards. I stepped off the distance from the base of the University of Texas tower to the spot where a guy was shot by Charles Whitman. (The victim was standing out in the open; I was about 30 feet away behind a large pecan tree.)
Regardless, the cartridge/rifle combination must tie in to military doctrine. The M-16/.223 does this, now. So does the M-60/.308, regardless of any problems with the design of the M-60.
Art
Regardless, the cartridge/rifle combination must tie in to military doctrine. The M-16/.223 does this, now. So does the M-60/.308, regardless of any problems with the design of the M-60.
Art
The ability of the 6PPC/.220 Russian case to take the pressure isn't the problem with getting additional velocity - The problem lies in that if you keep upping the pressure, you need a stronger locking bolt, receiver, etc. I think that someone calculated that the average Remington bolt is good for about 200,000 PSI, but the rule of thumb is that you should have a minimum of 3X the "theoretical" strength needed, to ensure that you don't end up wearing the bolt in your face.
And that pressure issue will be the same with any round...
Personally, I like the idea of the average grunt being able to carry a bleepload of ammo. .22 Hornet (actually, I'd go with a thicker case version) would be fine - The grunts don't aim half the time anyway, so give 'em something to spray and pray with... A 30 grain bullet moving out at over 4,000 fps (and I've got a 55 grain Nosler up to 4,000 fps in the 6PPC and 4,100 fps in the 6BR, but I don't recommend that for everyone...) is something that you don't wanna be on the receiving end of... Even at 2,500 fps, you've got something very nasty, with little recoil, out to a couple of hundred yards... Heck, should we ever get into a conflict where we have to deal with the "human wave" thing again, I'd like to see us have .22LR miniguns - Lots of ammo available per resupply, and with 6,000 rpm firepower - what does 6,000 rounds of .223 weigh vs. 6,000 rounds of .22LR? You can saturate an area, and the relatively wimpy cartridge doesn't matter - ever shoot a full auto American 180? They'll chew through a cinder block in no time flat...
FWIW, it'd be interesting to replace the concept of the .308 cartridge for the "battle rifle" with a high ballistic coefficient 6.5/284 cartridge, like those little girls have been using to whip butt with up at Perry...
And that pressure issue will be the same with any round...
Personally, I like the idea of the average grunt being able to carry a bleepload of ammo. .22 Hornet (actually, I'd go with a thicker case version) would be fine - The grunts don't aim half the time anyway, so give 'em something to spray and pray with... A 30 grain bullet moving out at over 4,000 fps (and I've got a 55 grain Nosler up to 4,000 fps in the 6PPC and 4,100 fps in the 6BR, but I don't recommend that for everyone...) is something that you don't wanna be on the receiving end of... Even at 2,500 fps, you've got something very nasty, with little recoil, out to a couple of hundred yards... Heck, should we ever get into a conflict where we have to deal with the "human wave" thing again, I'd like to see us have .22LR miniguns - Lots of ammo available per resupply, and with 6,000 rpm firepower - what does 6,000 rounds of .223 weigh vs. 6,000 rounds of .22LR? You can saturate an area, and the relatively wimpy cartridge doesn't matter - ever shoot a full auto American 180? They'll chew through a cinder block in no time flat...
FWIW, it'd be interesting to replace the concept of the .308 cartridge for the "battle rifle" with a high ballistic coefficient 6.5/284 cartridge, like those little girls have been using to whip butt with up at Perry...
.243 as military round
I like the .243 idea so much I recently purchased a AR10-A4 in that caliber. I already have the 5 shot mag for hunting and the Burris scope is mounted and ready to go.
As a military round I like the 250 savage, 257 Roberts or the old 6mm Navy. Am now reading We Were Soldiers Once, and Young which is about the Ia Drang and LX Albany. The .223 didn't seem to do well for stopping ditto the Somalian experience. I gues that is why you have to carry more eh?
I like the .243 idea so much I recently purchased a AR10-A4 in that caliber. I already have the 5 shot mag for hunting and the Burris scope is mounted and ready to go.
As a military round I like the 250 savage, 257 Roberts or the old 6mm Navy. Am now reading We Were Soldiers Once, and Young which is about the Ia Drang and LX Albany. The .223 didn't seem to do well for stopping ditto the Somalian experience. I gues that is why you have to carry more eh?
I was told by a guy who does a lot of reloading that he didn't think the 6mm PPC case could handle 50,000 and above PSI, no matter what bolt. He said the case itself is not designed for it(in that much I know he is right). So if it CAN handle it, what is the upper limit? I think .223 works at 54,000 PSI, if you could get 6mm PPC up to that you'd have a monsterous wildcat round probably going 3500-4000FPS.
Well, I shoot a 6PPC... Maybe your friend doesn't. I've run a 55 gr. Nosler at 4,000 fps, and 4,100 fps out of a 6BR.
I've popped primers with mine, which, IIRC, means pressures in the 65,000 psi range... Many benchresters run a 68 gr. projectile at around 3400 fps - That's some pressure.
For some reason, the cases tend to do okay, altho after a while they tend to get REAL easy to prime... I started at the Supershoot shooting 56 clicks of 1999 V133, but it was sort of erratic, and on day two I switched to 54 clicks of 8208. Shot five groups that averaged out to 0.2014" - That was good for third place. I hadn't noticed, but the brass had become slightly fatigued on day one (56 clicks wanted to shoot, but it was pretty hot - not as hard a spike as with 51 clicks of H322, but it seemed to be rougher on the brass), held for day two, but was significantly easier to prime, as I discovered the morning of day 4 after wondering what happened on day 3, when I pulled out my backup set of brass to play with a little warmup match load development and noticed the difference. Set #1 had approximately 20 firings on it. Shot Set #2 on day 4, and came back some...
FWIW, I minimally FL size (I bump it just a little, so that the bolt closes with a bit of pressure) with one of Lynwood Harrell's dies, usually using a .259 Redding/Wilson bushing (.262 neck, cases turned to 0.0087"). I seat 68 gr. Bart's jammed into the lands with a Wilson/Sinclair seater.
I've popped primers with mine, which, IIRC, means pressures in the 65,000 psi range... Many benchresters run a 68 gr. projectile at around 3400 fps - That's some pressure.
For some reason, the cases tend to do okay, altho after a while they tend to get REAL easy to prime... I started at the Supershoot shooting 56 clicks of 1999 V133, but it was sort of erratic, and on day two I switched to 54 clicks of 8208. Shot five groups that averaged out to 0.2014" - That was good for third place. I hadn't noticed, but the brass had become slightly fatigued on day one (56 clicks wanted to shoot, but it was pretty hot - not as hard a spike as with 51 clicks of H322, but it seemed to be rougher on the brass), held for day two, but was significantly easier to prime, as I discovered the morning of day 4 after wondering what happened on day 3, when I pulled out my backup set of brass to play with a little warmup match load development and noticed the difference. Set #1 had approximately 20 firings on it. Shot Set #2 on day 4, and came back some...
FWIW, I minimally FL size (I bump it just a little, so that the bolt closes with a bit of pressure) with one of Lynwood Harrell's dies, usually using a .259 Redding/Wilson bushing (.262 neck, cases turned to 0.0087"). I seat 68 gr. Bart's jammed into the lands with a Wilson/Sinclair seater.