230 gr or 185 gr?

You can drive a 185 a lot faster than a 230, thats a fact. But, expansion is based on the bullet's construction, not just the speed of the bullet. I've been loading for the 45 for over 20 years, and what I have found to be true is not necessarily the grain weight of the bullet, but its shape and bearing surface makes more difference in the accuracy. Pick up a box of different weights and construction, and see what your weapon does with them. You might be surprized!
 
Sorry to disagree, lonegunman. JMB had it right at 200 grains. IIRC, it was the US Army that was looking for a heavier bullet and demanded the 230 grain bullet.

FWIW, I like the 200 grain JHP loads for defense, and the 200 grain LSWC loads for just about everything else.
 
George Helser, you are stating your opinion as if it were fact, but have not yet put forth any valid support to your argument that 185 is better than 230.

As far as I know, the 230 g load is not "famous on the battlefield" for its ability to shoot through multiple troops lined up in a nice row. It might well do that, but how often are troops lined up for it to make a difference? Maybe during a parade?

I dont have a problem with 185 g loads, and probably carry them as often as 230g, but I dont think anyone can say definitively one is better than the other.
 
but I dont think anyone can say definitively one is better than the other.
Click to expand...
But we can sure try! ;)

WARNING: I am less than an amateur ballistician, I know very little about this subject! But I do find it fascinating.

The fact is, the 5.56mm rifle round does not penetrate deeply.

George, a rifle bullet traveling at vastly higher velocities does not extrapolate well to handgun rounds. It's wounding mechanism is not based on penetration, it's based on an enery dump of such magnitude that it cannot be reliably compared to the energy dump of a pistol round. Travelling at their much much lower velocities, the incapacitation mechanism of a pistol round is based, primarily, on penetration; not 'shock' or energy dump or 'power'. This is hotly debated, of course, but that's irrelevant...the wounding mechanism is based on penetration, which is best predicted by the sectional density. :)

You can't trade penetration for 'shock power' in a pistol round because the increase in 'shock power' gives you next-to-nothing in return. By going to the lighter round, all you've done is decreased the effectiveness of the relevant incapacitation mechanism. If you can crank the velocity up high enough that the mechanism can switch over (as in a rifle round), then you get something for the trade-off...but not at 45ACP velocities.

Or at least that's how I understand it.

- Gabe
 
DOCSpanky,

All the data I have seen, and my personal experience, shows that the M16/AR15’s 55 grain bullet at 3200 fps has very low penetration and very high destruction in a man size target.

Do you own a CB radio?

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona
 
DAVID NANCARROW,

You are right that expansion is a function of bullet construction. However, fundamentally, the potential for expansion in a pistol bullet is a function of velocity.

If it was possible for a 230 gr 45 ACP to expand to an inch with a 900 fps velocity it would be a devastating. In reality, 230 gr bullets expand little and demonstrate over-penetration which proves it is not a highly effective round.

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona
 
lonegunman,

You stated:
“you are stating your opinion as if it were fact, but have not yet put forth any valid support to your argument that 185 is better than 230. “

I have stated facts. What evidence do you need that lower power, lower shock and lower potential for expansion is less effective? Is it that you do not believe that 230 gr is inferior in these categories compared to 185 gr full power ammo in 45 ACP or do you believe that 20+ inches of penetration in a 10” target is an advantage?

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona
 
LIProgun,

Frankly, I have not studied 200 gr JHP bullets in 45 ACP. Maybe it is superior to 185 gr?

You must realize the US Army has an objective totally different from CCW people. The
Army:
- is stuck with FMJ bullets so expansion is not an issue
- is faced with targets wearing a lot of gear on vests so high penetration is a priority
- is shooting at unseen targets hidden behind things so high penetration is a priority
- is not very concerned about over-penetration
- is sometimes interested in suppressed shooting where a subsonic bullet is a plus
In this case, 230 gr ammo is ideal! For CCW users, full power 185 gr JHP ammo is FAR superior.

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona
 
All right, everybody! I'm going to e-mail Marshall and Sanow and get a definitive answer to this question once and for all!!!

;) :D
 
A quote from Col. Cooper that seems appropriate:
Velocity hysteria - the child of Roy Weatherby - is still with us despite all evidence to the contrary. If you need more killing power, you do not need more feet per second, you need more bullet weight and more impact area. I thought everybody knew that, but a great many people are not paying attention.
Click to expand...

;)

- Gabe
 
GRD,

Cooper is famous. Cooper has written a lot and I have studied some of his works. My evaluation is Cooper is a salesman, using emotion selling a point of view which is not based on reality when it comes to 45 ACP. Cooper made money on his sales pitch and
has since retired. For the most part, 45 ACP has also been retired.

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona
 
For the most part, 45 ACP has also been retired.
Click to expand...
You, sir, are a braver man than I. ;)

Seriously though, I didn't drop the Cooper quote to seal the deal, as it were. I just ran across it. What about the reasoning presented in the thread? Why is the 180 better than the 230? The thing is, your opinion on this is runs pretty contrary to what i understand about handgun ballistics and physical incapacitation mechanisms. I'm a learner, George, so learn me! :)

- Gabe
 
Velocity, etc........

......altho' all my experience has been hunting with a rifle, I find it almost hilarious that Roy Weatherby actually had any impact (pardon the pun) on handgun ballistics. A handgun encounter would always be at MUCH shorter ranges than what ol' Roy was shooting big game at. I think at handgun-type ranges, the Heavier bullet will always win out. Guess that's why deer hunters in the Eastern dense woods shoot big fat heavy bullets... .35 Rem, .45/70, etc........while Western hunters with their 300+ yard shots like their 7mm Rem Mags, .30-378 Weatherby (speak-of-the-devil) Mags, etc...
 
A recent test by C.P. showed correct expansion of modern .452" bullets as slow as 700fps.

Perhaps a more experienced and open-minded view-point will allow this thread to continue.

Would you rather head-shot a hostage-taker (think "Holding my daughter") with your 125g 357 SIG or a 230g Golden Saber at 800fps?
(Some serious pros decided on 45ACP.)
 
"For the most part 45 ACP has also been retired"

In the history of the universe, a more assanine statement has never been written.
 
Mr. Helser has a long history of asinine statements here and on other boards. For instance he "accused" me of being a relative of Lou Alessi because I like Alessi leather gear... not that being Lou's relative would be a bad thing, I bet Christmas Morning is a good thing for Lou's gun-toting relatives ... but I digress.

Unfortunately, as much as it pains me to admit it, I agree with Helser on this issue, when we are talking about short bbl. .45's.

I chose the Federal Hydra Shok 185 gr +P .45 round for carry in my HK USP .45C because my tests show it has a good balance of expansion and penetration in various media.

For a 5" bbl, no question, I would carry the 230.
 
Barrel length makes no difference. Test it yourself before you preach about it, folks. I have a box full of tested rounds, in all different calibers, weights, and styles from 9mm to 45acp, and you'll be hard pressed to tell them all apart.
A 230gr round, which is by far the best option, will penetrate and expand almost exactly the same from either a 3.5" barrel, or a 5" one. For all intents and purposes, a .10 of an inch of expansion makes no difference. We're nitpicking here.

http://www.pistolsmith.com/viewtopic.php?topic=1972&forum=24&27
 
Please, All--Let's Try to Get Along.

This topic is degrading badly, folks. It is a subject of some controversy, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, and to express it. But not at the expense of personal attacks and name calling.

Please--llet's keep to the high road. Criticize concepts, okay. Dislike guns and gear, fine. But let's don't jump on one another.

[granddaddy mode] You chern play nice, hear? Don't make me call yore moderator![/granddaddy mode]

;)

Best,
Johnny
 
Mr Guest:

please note that my use of the word "assanine" was directed at a comment and not an individual. I mean no harm to anyone, and everyone has a right to express their opinion.

However, opinions should be expressed as such, and not as fact.
 
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