223 vs 5.56

mini mauser

I ran some NATO marked 55 gr FMJ thru my Mini-Mauser this summer and chrono'd the shots, the average for the string was 3950 fps +/-. I don't have the notes in front of me, but that was several 100 fps faster than sporting 55 gr SP's. Believe all ammo was W-W.

No readily apparent pressure signs, but the wide variation and high velocity has convinced me not to to it again. The NATO stuff didn't group so hot either, 3MOA from a rifle that can shoot 1 MOA +/- with the right stuff.
 
So, some rifles marked .223 Rem are actually 5.56 and even some marked 5.56 are actually .223 Rem?. Ain't nothing sacred anymore. Maybe just maybe some of the 5.56 marked ammo is actually .223 and versa visa.
 
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JohnSKa,

In the linked luckygunner article, the secondary pressure spike was seen with both Tula and Silver Bear ammunition out of 5.56 chambers. To me that indicates and ammo problem (specifically a powder problem) and not a chamber problem.

From what I can tell, SAAMI proof loads for 223 Rem (based on the 55k pressure standard) is 69.5k to 74.5k CUP. So 77k CUP is over a proof load.

The CIP standard of 62k, if held to the same 1.3x to 1.4x operating pressure would be 80.6 kpsi to 86.8k psi. Here 77kpsi is under a proof load.

Just a reminder that Eurospec 223 Rem is not the same as SAAMI spec 223 Rem, and shooting the M855 5.56 ammo through the 223 chamber didn't push the max pressure over 62kpsi in the luckygunner test, so the ammo would still qualify as "223 Rem" in CIP specification.

What I think is happening is that the secondary pressure spike is what is popping primers, I can't prove it, but based on actual pressure trace data we have available (instead of anecdotal "the sun was out and I started popping primers, must be that 223 chamber of mine!") the primary pressure spike is not responsible for popping primers.

So, back to Occam's razor based on the available evidence, what say you?

Jimro
 
I have an old (1978) Colt AR 15 and two "Mini Mauser" bolt guns in 223. I have used military stamped 5.56 and commercial 223 Remington ammo in all three and none of the rifles seems to care which ammo it is being fed. I have not noticed any pressure signs with any ammo in any gun.

I keep hearing they are not the same cartridge. I have heard the chamber is a little different between 5.56 and 223. I have heard the shoulder is slightly forward on 5.56 (for full auto use). I have heard they are loaded to different pressures. But when I compare them I see no difference. When I shoot them I see no difference. Maybe I am missing something?
 
In 1968 my .222 Sako was rechambered to .223. Since then i have fired many hundreds of thousands of 5.56mm rounds in my bolt action .223 rifles. There has never been a popped primer. My last 10-12 re-barrel jobs were accomplished by my machinist son using my .223 reamer.

The problem is often an out of spec or tight chamber. Few chambers of factory rifles are reamed by gunsmiths or machinists; you get whatever chamber the laborer happens to give you.

Some of the US made 5.56mm ammo being sold today has been rejected by the US Army. i have found .223/5.56mm cases with necks that were .015 longer than spec. Jam the case mouth into the leade and pressure rises dramatically.

There are a plethora of various .223/5.56mm chambers. Click: Detailed 223 vs. 5.56 reamer dimensions comparison showing different variations:

http://ar15barrels.com/tech.shtml
 
...based on the available evidence, what say you?
One point of view is put forth by published information from Patrick Sweeney, Glen Zediker, SAAMI, Winchester, Hornady, Fulton Armory, Walter Kuleck and supported by additional information from independent sources indicating that what the experts predicted could happen, did happen in some cases when the ill-advised action was taken.

The other is supported by personal anecdotal evidence (of the "I've done it and gotten away with it so far." variety) and by an article written by luckygunner (A source, by the way, who clearly states that he has seen firing 5.56 in a .223 chamber exhibit pressure signs.).

I don't know--let me think about it for awhile... :D
 
Appeal to authority is the weakest argument :)

But specifically I was asking whether you thought the popped primers was a result of a secondary pressure spike or not.

Jimro
 
Does anyone here find it strange that SAAMI waited until huge quantities of surplus 5.56mm ammo hit the market to send out their dire warnings?

Would SAAMI lie to you? Yes, SAAMI would lie to you. SAAMI has lied before. Without consulting ammo manufacturers, SAAMI asked OSHA to re-write the rules for ammo storage and transportation: OSHA did just that. Ammo companies and others raised holy hades when the new reg came out for comments. SAAMI jumped on the internet and lied about their involvement, enlisted the help of gun rights organizations and appealed to gunowners to write to OSHA.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-285452.html&&

Yep, SAAMI also tells us that military brass is thicker than commercial brass.
Click on 223 Brass Weights Comparison:

http://ar15barrels.com/tech.shtml


Bottom line: If you think that firing 5.56mm ammo in .223 chambers is dangerous then don't do it.

As for me, i still have a few hundred thousand 5.56mm rounds that cost me little or nothing.
 
Appeal to authority is the weakest argument.
The logical fallacy of appeal to authority is when a person uses the views of an authority to support his own when the authority is not an expert on the topic at hand. Like quoting Einstein's political views to support one's own political views although Einstein was a physicist, not any sort of expert on politics.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html
http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Argumentum ad verecundiam

That said, even the fact that an authority who is an expert on the topic at hand, says something does not automatically make it true. It would be a weak argument, therefore, to use the statement of a single authority to attempt to validate one's opinion or position.

That's hardly what is going on here.

1. I didn't cite a single authority, I listed a number of them. Again, that's not solid proof, but it carries significantly more weight than it would if there were only one expert on the issue who agreed.

2. The authorities I cited, in general, haven't simply voiced an opinion on the topic, they have provided reasonable explanations of why the mismatch is a bad idea and how it can cause problems. So it's not just that we are expected to rely on stated opinions, we also have explanations which we can see to be consistent with the general principles of internal ballistics.

3. The authorities I cited are all firearm/ammunition experts, not experts in some unrelated field.
But specifically I was asking whether you thought the popped primers was a result of a secondary pressure spike or not.
It seems kind of unlikely given the one article's comments about the barrel length required for a really high secondary pressure spike to occur. But who knows--it could be responsible for some of them.
Yes, SAAMI would lie to you. SAAMI has lied before.
1. The fact that they have lied before doesn't automatically mean they're lying about this issue.

2. Even if we were to completely discredit SAAMI, there's still a formidable list of authorities and experts who agree on this topic, and it doesn't eliminate the factual basis for their stated position.
As for me, i still have a few hundred thousand 5.56mm rounds that cost me little or nothing.
And that's the crux of this issue, isn't it.

The OP, first asked this question some 2 years ago on another forum and was given a clear answer then. He's asking again for the same reason you're giving for ignoring the warning. It's not really because the facts are in question, it's because people feel they have a strong incentive to ignore the warnings.

For what it's worth, if you have been shooting that ammunition in your gun without incident, the odds are very good that continuing to shoot it in the same gun will be similarly incident free as long as you don't signficantly alter the circumstances under which you are shooting the ammunition.
 
JohnSKa,

Glen Zediker's article on chambers mentions a 15k increase in pressure, specifically dealing with long match bullets and he quotes another source for his pressure data. From 55k to 70k is still less than a proof load and not enough to pop primers. Patrick Sweeney's article says that most of the "5.56 ammo you buy isn't really 5.56 ammo." and he quotes another source for his pressure data. Walter Kuleck doesn't quote any pressure data, simply states again the difference in leade and notes that Win White Box offered two versions of 55gr bullets, one loaded in America, the other from Israel.

The only people providing actual pressure data have already been listed on this thread. Appealing to experts who are relying on other experts is at best secondhand expertise.

In a similar vein to the Win White Box dilemma:
Look at these advertisements for American Eagle 55gr loads.

From midwayusa a 223 load: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/95...emington-55-grain-full-metal-jacket-boat-tail

55gr at 3240 fps. Peak pressure not listed.

From CTD, an XM193 "milspec" load: http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/AMM-269

55gr at 3165 fps. Peak pressure 55k at the case neck.

Now 75 fps could be as simple as different barrel lengths. Or it could be that they were loaded with different powders. Or it could be that the "milspec" load is perfectly safe for an AR-15 with a 223 Rem chamber, which is why Winchester had no problem milspec milspec M193.

The experts agree that sometimes you get a popped primer with a 223 chamber shooting "5.56" spec'd ammo, although at least one guy reported a popped primer with a 223 pressure load in a 5.56 chamber http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/605372_popped_primer_and_a_locked_up_ar15_.html . Secondly, there is a lot of "this could happen" type reasoning going on which leads me to believe that we don't know exactly what is going on.

So based on what I actually know based on available data, I would rate the most important to least important factors as powder, pressure, brass, chamber in that order. I know for a fact that a 55gr FMJ in any chamber out there isn't jammed into the lands, not even a SAAMI minimum chamber, so it seems more likely that something else is more important, like an ingnition delay (primer goes off, pushes bullet into lands, powder has a delay in building pressure but is now locked into the brass by a stuck bullet) or a Secondary Pressure Spike.

Either way, I'm still curious as to the actual mechanics of an overpressure event that pops primers.

Jimro
 
jmr40
It is possible that SOME military 5.56 ammo is loaded slightly hotter than SOME 223 ammo.

I have seen 55 gr Malaysian surplus 5.56mm clock 3300 fps over the chrono with a 14" barrel.
 
I had never experienced any problem shooting 5.56 out of a .223. This was limited to Remingtons, Savages and Winchesters firing Lake City 193 and 855. Sure, I read the "don't shoot 5.56 out of .223" but I'd ignored it.

...and I still ignore it for the most part.

A few years back Bushmaster built a batch of AR rifles marked .223. I ignored it.

Here are the results. On the left is Lake City 855 fired from the Bushmaster. On the Right is the same ammunition fired from a Colt 601.

A few minutes with a 5.56 chamber reamer and no more blown primers.

 
The vast majority of popped primers happen with AR-15 rifles. i've never heard of a popped primer when firing factory .223 or 5.56mm ammo in a bolt action rifle. Prior to about ten years ago i never heard of a popped primer when firing an AR-15. Now it's more or less an accepted fact: That is bad.

i own two old Colt AR-15 rifles that were made before 1970. Neither has ever given any signs of high pressure when firing 5.56mm military M193 ball ammo. Neither has my Remington model 760. All my 5.56mm ammo is dated 1980 and prior. i would refuse to fire much of the 5.56mm ball ammo being sold today.

Most AR-15 rifles that experience popped primers are relatively new. The AR-15 is the most popular gun sold in this country. Companies we never heard of five years ago are building AR-15 rifles. Some of those companies use unskilled labor to ream chambers. It's a race to the bottom to build cheaper guns: Cheap guns require cheap labor.

Two gunsmiths have told me no manfacturer chambers .223 guns to SAAMI specs. Very few AR-15 manufacturers belong to SAAMI:

http://www.saami.org/member_companies/index.cfm

i know for a fact that some of the ball ammunition being sold today has been rejected by the US military. The US military uses very little M193 ball ammo. But untold millions of rounds are being purchased for foreign countries. Army QUASAS folks test that ammo and either accept or reject same.

Who knows why the ammo you get was rejected. Maybe the velocity was too low. Maybe, just maybe; the lot of ammo you get was rejected because the firing pressure was too high or the cartridge case was out of spec.

i've already addressed the fact that some .223/5.56mm ammo being sold today has long case necks. As much as .015 too long.
 
From 55k to 70k is still less than a proof load and not enough to pop primers.
Assuming that we accept that a 15Kpsi pressure increase won't pop primers, that's a reasonable point in terms of explaining why the primers pop. But it's absolutely not justification for ignoring the mismatch warnings. 70K is within 3% of being a proof load for the .223, and it's obviously well over SAAMI max for the caliber.

Furthermore, if you add in another factor (such as warm weather), then you do get to the point where the two factors, together, can provide exactly the reported result.
Patrick Sweeney's article says that most of the "5.56 ammo you buy isn't really 5.56 ammo."
Again, that's an interesting point, but it doesn't speak to the real issue. That is more evidence as to why it's not common for people to see a problem with this issue. We already know that not all .223 guns have .223 chambers. Now we find that not all 5.56 ammo is really 5.56 ammo.

But that doesn't change the fact that when you DO end up with REAL 5.56 ammo and a REAL .223 chamber, the mismatch can drive pressures up well above SAAMI max. And that it can, under certain circumstances result in blown primers and potentially other issues.

So do we tell people that they should ignore the warnings because they might not have a real .223 chamber or might not have real 5.56 ammo? Unless we can tell them how to know for sure what kind of chamber and ammo they have, it would be irresponsible to make such a recommendation.
The only people providing actual pressure data have already been listed on this thread.
Given that I listed sources like Winchester, Hornady, and SAAMI, that assertion is not remotely credible. Clearly ammunition makers and ammunition standards organizations have access to "actual pressure data".

Even if you want to dismiss all the other sources, I don't see how you're going to be able to make the case that Winchester and Hornady are simply relying on other experts when they provide the mismatch warning.
Secondly, there is a lot of "this could happen" type reasoning going on which leads me to believe that we don't know exactly what is going on.
Even your primary source (luckygunner) doesn't advise ignoring the mismatch warning, stating that his advice is to buy whatever chamber fits your needs and then avoid the mismatch. He also provides pressure data showing that some of his 5.56 testing in .223 chambers showed pressures over SAAMI max.

Maybe we don't know EXACTLY what's going on, but the basics (i.e. the mismatch can cause overpressure discharges) don't seem to be in dispute.
Here are the results. On the left is Lake City 855 fired from the Bushmaster. On the Right is the same ammunition fired from a Colt 601.

A few minutes with a 5.56 chamber reamer and no more blown primers.
So, trigger643, how can you explain the fact that reaming the chamber to 5.56 dimensions eliminated the secondary pressure spike? :D (Ok, I kid.)

Thanks for posting your results.

Chamber/Ammo Mismatch=blown primers
Eliminate the mismatch by reaming the chamber and then retest using the same ammunition and firearms=no blown primers.

That should be conclusive.
i've never heard of a popped primer when firing factory .223 or 5.56mm ammo in a bolt action rifle.
I have heard of a few instances where shooters reported difficulty opening the bolt after shooting 5.56 in a .223 bolt rifle.
The vast majority of popped primers happen with AR-15 rifles.
Which is a good reason to discount the secondary pressure spike as a mechanism given that it is not supposed to occur in barrels of 20" or shorter.
If you are convinced it's dangerous, simply do not shoot 5.56mm ammo in .223 chambers.
The issue here is making sure that others who haven't already made up their mind can get a clear view of the big picture so they have a chance of making an educated decision.
 
I have never had a problem shooting MILSPEC / USGI 5.56 through any commercial .223 chambered rifle. And I have shot a lot of it.

Regards,

Rob
 
Again, that's an interesting point, but it doesn't speak to the real issue. That is more evidence as to why it's not common for people to see a problem with this issue. We already know that not all .223 guns have .223 chambers. Now we find that not all 5.56 ammo is really 5.56 ammo.

But that doesn't change the fact that when you DO end up with REAL 5.56 ammo and a REAL .223 chamber, the mismatch can drive pressures up well above SAAMI max. And that it can, under certain circumstances result in blown primers and potentially other issues.

So do we tell people that they should ignore the warnings because they might not have a real .223 chamber or might not have real 5.56 ammo? Unless we can tell them how to know for sure what kind of chamber and ammo they have, it would be irresponsible to make such a recommendation.

JohnSKa,

I'm not disagreeing with anyone about some "real issue" I'm asking "why does this happen and what is the mechanism." You say that all those manufacturers and industry groups are credible sources, so please show me their data. If you can't show me their data then you can't prove their are credible and you are have no idea about sample size, testing methodology, or exactly what they experienced to come to their conclusion. Without access to that data those organizations have nothing to add to the "why" part of the discussion.

I think that the "popped primers" issue with ARs is a sign that of a secondary pressure spike during extraction, although in Trigger643's case it was most likely an ignition delay problem going to a stopped bore situation causing a primary pressure strike. Can't tell with any higher certainty without miking the case heads, but a longer throat would give the bullet further to travel on an initial primer explosion without getting jammed into the lands before the powder could build pressure. It could also have been a primary jam where the case neck got jammed into the throat and caused a mechanical lock on the bullet leading to an overpressure event.

It is one thing to say, "I had this experience, then reamed my chamber, and haven't repeated the experience" and it is a completely different thing to understand what was actually happening with the pressure curves during the firing cycle.

In a bolt action rifle with 223 chambers firing 5.56 pressure ammo, we don't see popped primers, we see cratered and sometimes pierced primers. This indicates to me that at least some of the popped primers in AR's due to the primer not being fully supported, indicating that a high pressure event is happening in the brass while extraction is taking place. This to me indicates a secondary pressure spike (even one less than 70k, as it doesn't take much pressure to push a primer out of the pocket).

The easiest way to test this is to change out the powder in some of those 5.56 loads away from WC844 to a different powder at "max" charge to see if the problems go away. Then again, M193 was spec'd with 28gr of WC844 (unkown actual burn rate) and a velocity of 3250 fps. Load data for H335 (cannister grade WC844) maxes out at under the "milspec" reference load of 28 grains.

However, http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-303359.html even 28 grains of H335 should not expand the case head or pop the primers. It is a "hot load" for a 223 but the Ruger #1 used in Clark's test doesn't extract the brass under pressure, also I have no idea where that rifle falls in the range of commercial 223 chambers. Anyways WC844/H335 has known ignition delay issues, so that explains the cratered/pierced primers in bolt action rifles.

Jimro
 
The powder used in early M193 5.56mm ammo is IMR 4475. The US Army made the change to WC846. WC846 gave the M16 rifle a bad reputation. It increased the cyclic rate of the M16 rifle by 200 rounds per minute.

The M193 round was accepted into the US military inventory with IMR 4475 powder. Then the change was made to WC846, then to IMR 8208.

i sometimes use WC846 for my .223/5.56mm reloads: Mostly because i bought it cheap years ago. Got to be careful with WC846 maximum loads in hot weather. i have some reloads marked for winter use only. :D

Slightly off topic.
The Ichord committee report on the M16 rifle and it's ammo problems:

http://www.bobcat.ws/rifle.shtml
 
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