.22 LR vs. 32 ACP for Self-Defense
- Thread starter Drakejake
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Holy 20 year old zombie thread resurrection! I know you did it on purpose, and it is an interesting idea. Let’s weigh the advice given today versus that of 20 years ago.
The CC handgun market is significantly better today. In 2000, the Bersa Thunder in 380 was the typical advice given here and other forums on an affordable concealed carry handgun. Now most major manufacturers make a model in 9mm that is in the price and size range of the bersa. Heck many of them are smaller. .32 and .22lr have not benefitted as much from innovation. My opinion as to why is that most people would rather carry at least a .380, and so innovation has favored the larger calibers.
However, to continue an almost irrelevant discussion in today’s time (very few will choose either caliber because concealable 9mm handguns are available and affordable) I’ll play. Mostly because I’m considering a very small .32 pistol for pocket carry in shorts and t-shirt attire. I’m going with .32 given the choice between the two. Center Fire is inherently more reliable than rim fire. No one will argue against this. Also, the additional velocity from a .22 will not be much at all from pistol length barrels. .32 from a pistol length barrel still has slightly more k/e than .22lr from a rifle. And finally, reliable and concealable .32 acp firearm options are not much more expensive than .22lr equivalents. There is the cost of ammo, but .32 is still reasonably priced enough to practice to proficiency.
BTW in either option a lead slug is best, IMO.
I'm one of those very few that does choose 32acp as my most often carried (with a 25acp in my pocket as well) handgun. In fact I own more 32acp pistols than both the 9mmKurz and 9mm Parabellum format combined.
The reason I choose 32acp are pretty simple; like with real estate it is location, Location, LOCATION. I find that I can quickly place more accurate repeated shots from my various 32acp pistols than I can with any of my 9mm varieties. I shoot only ball ammo in the 32acp format and the majority of the pistols I do carry in that caliber are at least a half century old.
The reason I choose 32acp are pretty simple; like with real estate it is location, Location, LOCATION. I find that I can quickly place more accurate repeated shots from my various 32acp pistols than I can with any of my 9mm varieties. I shoot only ball ammo in the 32acp format and the majority of the pistols I do carry in that caliber are at least a half century old.
I have had 3 Beretta 21 in 22lr in last couple years. I ran CCI mini mags in them and was really impressed with both function and accuracy. I have no use for anything that small but you could carry it in a shirt pocket. The only murder weapon I own is Walther PP 32 and good gun but heavy for what it is. SD gun doesn’t have to bullseye at 25yds. You can sight stories about 22s doing weird things but others sight 22s killing people. Certainly not the best man killer but will do in most cases.
I have to call B.S. on this. It is (or at least was) VERY common practice to dispatch cattle for butchering in slaughter houses with a singe shot to the brain with a snubby .22 pistol. I was raised on a cattle ranch where we butchered our own beef. I have personally done exactly that more times than I can probably count. In front between the eyes and from the top straight down. A cow's skull is quite thicker than that of a human. Without fail the cow dropped instantly like a sack of wet manure. So please do not try to feed me a line of smelly stuff about a .22 not penetrating someone's skull. I will not buy it.
I suppose that, give the exact and very unlikely angle, distance and round used (maybe a .22 short?), it is possible to have what that pathologist and EMT describe actually happening. But far from having his hands around your throat the dude would probably be reeling from a concussion, seeing little stars and standing in the yard trying to find the house.
That said, with my diminutive little PT22 or Beretta Bobcat I can easily put 9 rounds into a head shot at 7 yards in about one second. Also, I have never in my life had a .22 misfire that didn't go off the 2nd time it was fired ... and both of these little pistols allow you to fire again merely by pulling the trigger again. Even if I did buy into the line of stuff quoted, 9 rounds rapid fire at a head at 7 yards has a VERY high probability of at least ONE of them going into the mouth or an eye socket.
But it is not all about head shots. The name of the game in self-defense isn't to kill someone necessarily ... the goal is to convince them to go play somewhere else and leave you alone. 9 rounds into a perp's upper torso might not stop him instantly, but he will be wobbling on his pins wanting his mommy if not dropping at your feet, and he will most likely be dead before an ambulance can get there. And a hit to his heart will stop him just as fast as the same hit with a 357. If you have never hunted small game such as coyotes with a .22, you really have no idea the damage they can actually do.
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EXACTLY. A .22 pistol is for last-ditch, up close and personal. Schtick it in his ear and pull the trigger.Gotta know the 22's limitations and make your choice, but like you said the guy may get hold of my throat, if so thats the perfect range to start puttin'em through the eye socket
Actually, with today's laws, every caliber should be treated this way without exception. Unless your very life is threatened, AND THAT THREAT IS IMMINENT (meaning going to happen in the next second), if you draw that gun and so much as display it, you are committing assault with a deadly weapon and are most likely on your way to a few years vacationing in prison as well as being bankrupted by legal fees. 7 yards away is NOT IMMINENT. 3 yards away IS NOT IMMINENT. The threat is NOT IMMINENT unless he actually has hands on you AND YOU FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE. Unless the S.O.B. is actually shooting at you or pointing a gun at you. And if he is pointing a gun at you, you are a certified idiot if you try to draw yours, you will be dead before you clear leather.
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Bill DeShivs
New member
Jimku- your experience shooting cows at the proper angle has nothing to do with SD head shots.
Bullets bouncing off human skulls is actually pretty common.
Unless the bullet is travelling at pretty close to a 90 degree angle to the skull, it's pretty easy for it to be deflected. Often times, bullets travel under the scalp, followling the skull and exit-looking like a through head shot.
This doesn't just happen with .22s. Locally this happened with a .38 Spl. hollow point back when the local PD still carried revolvers. I have read about it happening with .45 acp, too.
And as far as your legal advice, please don't quit your job to take up law.
Bullets bouncing off human skulls is actually pretty common.
Unless the bullet is travelling at pretty close to a 90 degree angle to the skull, it's pretty easy for it to be deflected. Often times, bullets travel under the scalp, followling the skull and exit-looking like a through head shot.
This doesn't just happen with .22s. Locally this happened with a .38 Spl. hollow point back when the local PD still carried revolvers. I have read about it happening with .45 acp, too.
And as far as your legal advice, please don't quit your job to take up law.
I'm not so sure about that. I'm no expert, but I would guess the average person, aged 20-30 years old, in average physical condition could close that 3 yard gap in one second. If that person has a knife, and your carry pistol is still holstered, you will be bleeding. You don't have to be bad breath close to be in imminent danger.
I can't draw my pistol and get off a good shot in less than one second, and I doubt 95% of the people reading this can either.
jetinteriorguy
New member
Heck, I once had a 9mm FMJ bounce off a raccoons skull at close range. Out hunting with the hounds I had to climb a pine tree to get a good shot. At about 8-10 ft I hit it in the head and it fell dead out of the tree, or so I thought. Once on the ground I was examining the hide and holy crap, he came to life and was pretty ticked off. My partner dispatched him with a shot to the head up close from his 1022.
jimku:
Trying to keep this straight:
A) You're not in imminent threat unless you're in the grasp of someone that means to do you harm. Check!
B) If you're already in the grasp of someone who means to do you harm or they're already shooting at you, it's too late to use your gun in self defense. Check!
C) You're a certified idiot. Check!
How many times a year has a gun been used in self defense and not been fired?
How many prosecutions for
Trying to keep this straight:
A) You're not in imminent threat unless you're in the grasp of someone that means to do you harm. Check!
B) If you're already in the grasp of someone who means to do you harm or they're already shooting at you, it's too late to use your gun in self defense. Check!
C) You're a certified idiot. Check!
How many times a year has a gun been used in self defense and not been fired?
How many prosecutions for
?
Area. 22= .0394" 32 = .0756" 32 wins
Muzzle velocity per same length barrels. Statistical tie.
Standard Bullet Weight: 22= 40 Gr. 32 = 71 Gr. (US) 32 wins by 75% advantage.
Reliability in ignition: Rimfire vs Center fire.... Centerfire wins.
So far the 32 ACP is ahead.
Muzzle velocity per same length barrels. Statistical tie.
Standard Bullet Weight: 22= 40 Gr. 32 = 71 Gr. (US) 32 wins by 75% advantage.
Reliability in ignition: Rimfire vs Center fire.... Centerfire wins.
So far the 32 ACP is ahead.
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My only 32acp is a Walther/Manhurin PP made in 1957. I would pick it over a small 22 especially with my 100gr lead bullet reloads. But if I chose a 22 it would be loaded with Remington Yellow Jacket ammo.
Long ago I test a lot of different hollow point 22 ammo and the Yellow Jacket was hands down the best when it came to expansion. Way better than the CCI Mini Mag. The Mini Mag is fine from a longer barrel but never expanded from the short barrel of my IJ TP22. The Yellow Jacket always expanded.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1601511080
Out of stock right now but the latest Midway flyer had it advertised so I'm guessing they are expecting it back one day.
Long ago I test a lot of different hollow point 22 ammo and the Yellow Jacket was hands down the best when it came to expansion. Way better than the CCI Mini Mag. The Mini Mag is fine from a longer barrel but never expanded from the short barrel of my IJ TP22. The Yellow Jacket always expanded.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1601511080
Out of stock right now but the latest Midway flyer had it advertised so I'm guessing they are expecting it back one day.
I live in the desert where it is hot in the summer. The goal was to find the smallest size, effective handgun, that is also safe to carry with a loaded chamber. I anticipate pocket carry - that means speed will be a relative thing, but adding time to work the slide is not an option.
I considered revolvers. The smallest double action revolvers are much larger than the pistol I chose. I also considered a North American five-shot .22WMR and the High Standard D-101 .22WMR derringer. I decided against each because out of their very short barrels, I think velocity is too low. The low round capacity was also a factor.
None of the .22LR autos I considered are, in my opinion, safe to carry with a loaded chamber.
Then I got around to reading the copy of “Stopping Power” by Evan Marshall and Edwin Sanow that I bought at a close out price when Paladin Press closed its doors a few years ago. One of there articles reintroduced me to the Seecamp LW-32.
I was fortunate to find a low (four digit) serial number example at the right price. The Seecamp is a double-action only (DAO) .32 auto. DAO means the trigger pull for every shot is about seven pounds and the travel is about an inch; this is not a trigger that can be activated unintentionally.
The Seecamp was designed around the Winchester 60gr. Silvertip ammunition. I could not find any Silvertips for sale. The Seecamp website now lists other .32 acp self-defense ammunition as appropriate for the Seecamp. Interestingly it advises against FMJ ammo and that ammo is reputed to be unreliable in the Seecamp.
Another interesting note is the Seecamp is intended for (very) close-quarters use and does not have sights.
I tested mine with Hornady 60gr. Critical Defense loads and Speer 60gr. Gold Dot Hollow Points. I was not able to get my Labradar to consistently record velocities - I think due to lack of experience with the unit. Both loads functioned perfectly. The Speer loads are snappier and had more recoil. Neither load had uncomfortable recoil, especially as compared to my titanium cylinder S&W 337 loaded with +p or +p+ ammo - that little gun is brutal.
I shot the gun using one hand at targets representing a torso at distances between three yards and seven yards. I found that I was able to put all of the rounds into a torso out to seven yards by “point shooting.” The closer I was, the more centered the hits.
My little Seecamp, loaded with the Speer GDHP ammo, has earned a place among my concealed carry arms. It is not always the primary, but it is quite often along when I leave the house.
I considered revolvers. The smallest double action revolvers are much larger than the pistol I chose. I also considered a North American five-shot .22WMR and the High Standard D-101 .22WMR derringer. I decided against each because out of their very short barrels, I think velocity is too low. The low round capacity was also a factor.
None of the .22LR autos I considered are, in my opinion, safe to carry with a loaded chamber.
Then I got around to reading the copy of “Stopping Power” by Evan Marshall and Edwin Sanow that I bought at a close out price when Paladin Press closed its doors a few years ago. One of there articles reintroduced me to the Seecamp LW-32.
I was fortunate to find a low (four digit) serial number example at the right price. The Seecamp is a double-action only (DAO) .32 auto. DAO means the trigger pull for every shot is about seven pounds and the travel is about an inch; this is not a trigger that can be activated unintentionally.
The Seecamp was designed around the Winchester 60gr. Silvertip ammunition. I could not find any Silvertips for sale. The Seecamp website now lists other .32 acp self-defense ammunition as appropriate for the Seecamp. Interestingly it advises against FMJ ammo and that ammo is reputed to be unreliable in the Seecamp.
Another interesting note is the Seecamp is intended for (very) close-quarters use and does not have sights.
I tested mine with Hornady 60gr. Critical Defense loads and Speer 60gr. Gold Dot Hollow Points. I was not able to get my Labradar to consistently record velocities - I think due to lack of experience with the unit. Both loads functioned perfectly. The Speer loads are snappier and had more recoil. Neither load had uncomfortable recoil, especially as compared to my titanium cylinder S&W 337 loaded with +p or +p+ ammo - that little gun is brutal.
I shot the gun using one hand at targets representing a torso at distances between three yards and seven yards. I found that I was able to put all of the rounds into a torso out to seven yards by “point shooting.” The closer I was, the more centered the hits.
My little Seecamp, loaded with the Speer GDHP ammo, has earned a place among my concealed carry arms. It is not always the primary, but it is quite often along when I leave the house.
It makes precious little difference to me, as long as both are reliable and the bullet is good for a foot or so of penetration. Obviously there is more opportunity to buy undesirable ammo in .22LR, so proper selection takes more care.
The Israelis were famous for killing AK-wielding terrorists with their Beretta 22's. It's amazing how effective any weapon can be if you are committed to putting the bullets exactly where they need to go.
Yes, the .32 has a slight theoretical advantage, but the overwhelming factor in the equation is how well you can place the bullets.
Actual shooting stats bear this out -- it's hard to see much difference between any of the common handgun calibers. There is some, but it's not as obvious as you would think: https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
The Israelis were famous for killing AK-wielding terrorists with their Beretta 22's. It's amazing how effective any weapon can be if you are committed to putting the bullets exactly where they need to go.
Yes, the .32 has a slight theoretical advantage, but the overwhelming factor in the equation is how well you can place the bullets.
Actual shooting stats bear this out -- it's hard to see much difference between any of the common handgun calibers. There is some, but it's not as obvious as you would think: https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
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