22 LR accuracy

I shoot with one guy out at the range that has his Grandfathers Anshultz (sp).
His Grandfather shot it in the Winter Olympics I am being told. Has this metal band that comes off the back of stock and wraps around the back of his shoulder. Any how he shoots a 6 inch metal gong at 300 yards and hits it almost always. It is fun to watch him. I sit 4 benches down from him ( he takes bench next to tree line for wind I would assume ). but to see the angle that rifle is sitting at is funny. Has a 10-50 x 56 Sightron scope on it. Pull trigger and count to 2 or 3 and then there is this -Ting, I laugh Everytime I watch him.
 
My Winchester 75 I have owned for over 30 years and has had well over 10K rounds in those 30 years and how many before me I have no idea since the gun was well used when I bought it. The only thing I have done with it is a better set of peep sights and shoot it.
At 100 yards across sand bags and if I am on, sub moa’s are easy. Wind kills me if it’s gusting. Its one thing I can’t read very well.
I have only shot it once at 200 yards and all I will say to that is I kept them all on paper. How big was the target? I refuse to answer that question on grounds of self incrimination.:(
 
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I shoot with one guy out at the range that has his Grandfathers Anshultz (sp).
His Grandfather shot it in the Winter Olympics I am being told. Has this metal band that comes off the back of stock and wraps around the back of his shoulder. Any how he shoots a 6 inch metal gong at 300 yards and hits it almost always. It is fun to watch him. I sit 4 benches down from him ( he takes bench next to tree line for wind I would assume ). but to see the angle that rifle is sitting at is funny. Has a 10-50 x 56 Sightron scope on it. Pull trigger and count to 2 or 3 and then there is this -Ting, I laugh Everytime I watch him.
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I know that it takes the same amount of elevation for a 22 LR to go from 100 yards to 200 yards that I put on for a 308 going from 600 yards to 1000 yards. About 22 to 24 MOA. I cannot imagine how much more it takes to go from 200 yards to 300 yards for a rimfire, but it has to be a lot.

Plus rimfires get blown around by the slightest wind. Hitting a gong target at 300 yards with a rimfire would have to be a huge combination of luck and good holding.

In so far as the accuracy of older (pre 1960) rimfires, take a look at the Dec 1956 Gun Magazine www.gunsmagazine.com/1956issues/G1256.pdf‎ In that issue Larry Moore, an very active small bore prone shooter, tests period low cost rimfires and finds they shoot very well. Larry Moore was an exceptional shooter, and as a Government Employee, at Aberdeen Test Range, he was the test conductor on every candidate service rifle from the late 40's to the early 60's. Most of the reports he wrote are still withheld from the public domain, but he tested all the early M14, FAL, AR15 rifles.

If you notice in the article, Larry modified some of the rifles to make then shootable with a scope. From those who knew Larry, he had a machine shop at home. Several people I know bought rifles from his estate and they claim it is obvious that Larry went through the rifles fixing and adjusting things. Such as making the stock to buttplate fit perfect. I held a NM 1903 he had, and everything on that rifle was correct for a competition rifle. The rear sight had no wobble or binding, sights perfectly aligned, the bedding was correct, the trigger excellent. It also had been rebarreled, something I think Larry did.

Larry continued shooting until his death in 2005. I met people at small bore prone matches who knew Larry, and he also shot highpower, Larry must have been a competitor till his 70's or 80's.
 
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Slamfire-- He said he is almost maxed out on adjustment on his scope. My eyes are not the best,but he said he can also see his bullet just before it hits target.
It's just funny to watch him. looks like he is shooting into the sky almost
 
winter

if the fellow's grandfather shot that .22 in the Winter Olympics then he must have been competing in the Biathlon event....it is the only shooting event in the Winter Olympics. Does the gun look anything like this:
 
4runnerman said:
Slamfire-- He said he is almost maxed out on adjustment on his scope. My eyes are not the best,but he said he can also see his bullet just before it hits target.
It's just funny to watch him. looks like he is shooting into the sky almost
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In the late afternoon, shooting facing North, I can see the bullet for the last few feet before it hits the target at 100yards (through a scope). I was stunned the first time I noticed it. It's pretty cool, I can actually make out the last bit of the trajectory sometimes. I can also see shotgun patterns if the sun is behind me.
 
darkgael-- Kinda sorts looks like that. He has no mags hanging on the side of his though, and it has been tapped for scope mounts. The thing is stained darker color and the metal you have coming off the butt on the bottom, His is like that but it makes a wrap up to top of stock and rests on his shoulder on top. Basically like a U that you put your arm through. The thing shoots like a champ. I will have to get a pic of it next summer and post it. I don't know much about it,but I told him it say's Anshultz on it and that is very good quality there.
 
I used to have an old Montgomery Ward bolt action target rifle with a garage sale scope. It would make one ragged hole from rest at 100 yards using bulk ammo.
Your 4" group is not bragging material.
 
Darkgael- Here is a a pic,but the metal on the butt wraps all the way to the top of his shoulder ( must be a add on )
 

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My eyes are not the best,but he said he can also see his bullet just before it hits target.
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With a scope, when the sun and wind conditions are right, at 100 yards I have seen black dots that have to be the bullets on their way to my target. There are times I can see the trace and it is interesting to see evidence of cork screwing of the bullet path.

The rifle you show is likely a M1413, based on the stock and probable age.

 
Slamfire-- You got it. The part in the middle on the bottom is not on his,but that is what it looks like. It is tapped for a scope also. I have thought about checking out the price,but some how I feel it would be more than I would want to spend on a 22
 
rifle

Are you sure he was in the Winter Olympics? Was he a cross country skier? A good one? Obviously, I am very curious....Biathlon is one of my favorite sports (to watch). Biathlon was first included in 1960. The .22RF became the standard
in 1978.
That rifle looks more like a position rifle which would be found in the Summer games. Lotsa shooting in the summer. Doesnt look like a gun a skier would carry on his back while racing.
Pete
 
darkgael- Never thought about it, but now that you mention it. Something is fishy here. If it started in 1960, hmmm his Grandfather????.. Not likely, Next question now coming to mind- If it was his Grandfather we could say what year?.
Had to have been 50 years ago plus , I would think, Did they have those rifles like that 50 years ago?. I think I am being taken for a ride here by this guy.
 
Slamfire says to me:
You are acting like every other good centerfire shooter to whom I have quoted those numbers. They just can’t believe that a rimfire could shoot that well and certainly not better than their target centerfires.
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regarding .38" size consistant groups from a rimfire 22 at 100 yards.

I'll stick to my belief that no rifle shoots that size groups all the time. Group's are interesting. There's the following ways they're referenced:

* "Best group is X inch" which means that's the smallest one shot. Nobody except the shooter knows what all the other were and his agenda may be to think only of that one.

* "Average group is X inch" which means that some of the groups shot were bigger than that; how much is not known.

* "Mean radius of the group (a few to several dozen shots) is X inch" means the group center was calculated as well as the radius of each shot hole from it and the average figured out. Pretty good, but the extreme spread of such methods can still be 3 to 5 times larger than the mean radius.

* "All shots tested into X inch" says what that load did, but is only meaningful if the test is repeated and all shots group within 10% of what happened before. The more shots tested, the better the accuracy that can be counted on all the time is observed. The more shots there are in a test group, the better it is, to me, anyway.

Regarding the many groups shown in the link below (which is an excellent thing to show thanks FALPhil) showing how each fired group's sizes are different than the average. Note that most smallbore prone matches are 20 shots including 5 or more sighters.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/2009/bl100.html

...if one looks at them, they'll see at least one in each 5-group series of 5-shots for each ammo type, there's at least one group bigger than the average. And an overlayed composite of several of the best ones shows that 25-shot group to be 2 or 3 tenths inch bigger than the average listed for each load. Took me a while, but I managed to superimpose some atop each other (aligned on aiming square with scoring rings aligned) and plot where all 25 shots went. So I'll stick to my opinion that the best rimfire ammo on this planet shoots under 5/8th to 3/4ths inch and no better.

But I do believe folks can shoot rimfires into smaller subtended angles onpaper than high power rifles can. I've known for years that smallbore prone scores shot on 100 yard targets with 1 and 2 MOA high scoring rings have been better with less accurate ammo than high power match rifles shooting at 600 yards with the same subtended angles on their high scoring rings. In spite of the high power rifle's ammo shooting 1/2 MOA at 600 yards from machine rests and the best smallbore rifles shooting 1/2 MOA at 100 yards. Why? Simple to figure out. One has to hold still for 3 milliseconds from sear release to bullet exit on a high power rifle, but it moves 3 to 4 times as much during lock + barrel time than a rimfire 22 does; the bullet's departure axes is not all that repeatable. Rimfire rifles have to be held still fo 5 milliseconds for lock plus barrel time before the bullet exits, but they barely move at all in recoil during that time. Rimfire bullet's departure axes is quite repeatable. The winning and record setting scores in rimfire were higher in smallbore matches than high power ones. In spite of the fact that when both rifle types are tested from machine rests at 100 yards, the high power one shoots under 1/4 inch and the rimfire one shoots under 1/2 inch. It's not a "rifle + ammo" accuracy game, it's a shootability game. It's easier to shoot high scores with smallbore than it is high power. I wish my best smallbore scores could have been shot in high power.

Slamfire, I may be one of the few high power shooters who'll acknowledge this. I know most of them don't. All it takes to see the difference is look up the record scores on the NRA's web site or, check the scores fired at the Nationals and regionals and see which discipline has the greatest percentage of 200-17X or better cleans in prone. Betcha a Coke and a ham sandwich it's smallbore.
 
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Most people quote their best groups at whatever distance and seldom quote average groups with 22's. This thread is somewhat refreshing.

Competition benchrest shooting is turned into a science and I don't have the means or desire to keep pace with the kind of equipment used.

I still enjoy shooting cheap ammo at 50 yds and see how well I can do.
 
Interesting thread here. I've never really taken the time to measure groups from my Savage MKII TR. I used it for a while in silhouette competition, but I am really not very good at that discipline. I shoot it now for fun. At 50 yds. I did hit 11 bottle caps in a row then nailed a penny. Then my daughter drove up and hit 6 of them in a row, and she had never fired the gun before. She wanted to shoot a penny, but all I had was a nickle, so she drilled it dead center. We were shooting off a bipod with a Weaver Classic 4-16 scope and it was too easy. All I know is that the rifle is more than accurate enough for me.
 
I decided to see what I could do with a .22lr a couple years ago. I ended up building up a Savage MKII with bull barrel. Since then, I've added a bi-pod, Boyds Evolution stock, built the triggerguard/bottom metal, 6-24x50 scope I had laying around, tried 20 different types of ammo, and ended up with my best 3 shot group of .584 at 100yds. Did that while betting 20 bucks against a guy with his AR that he thought was better. Best feeling was knowing that I had less in the whole rifle than he did in just his optics and he got beat :D.
 
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