2 shots center mass from .45 acp story
- Thread starter Doug.38PR
- Start date
riverrat66
New member
I'll bet this got his attention!
If anyone thinks it ain't serious sh*t getting shot with a handgun look at this link . It shows what a .40 cal. SW 135gr. hydra-shok bullet fired at close range can do. It's not pretty and I'd hate like hell to be on the receiving end of this!
If anyone thinks it ain't serious sh*t getting shot with a handgun look at this link . It shows what a .40 cal. SW 135gr. hydra-shok bullet fired at close range can do. It's not pretty and I'd hate like hell to be on the receiving end of this!
CobrayCommando
Moderator
Allright, I didn't bother reading this thread, only the first post.
Lesson number one here is don't aim for center mass, thats simply idiotic. What is there but guts. Aim for the f*ing lethal triangle, thats where the .45 does its extra damage.
No handgun round will reliably "put someone down", as in drop dead instantly, even if you hit the vitals, and especially if you don't. It happens, but eventually your going to run into someone who simply doesn't feel like laying down.
Misses don't count, I don't give a **** what you think of the .45 if it doesn't hit vitals its not going to do jack unless you get lucky and hit a sissy.
I'm tired of seeing threads where you hit a guy in the lovehandles and suddenly everyone jumps on that caliber for not instantly killing him.
Lesson number one here is don't aim for center mass, thats simply idiotic. What is there but guts. Aim for the f*ing lethal triangle, thats where the .45 does its extra damage.
No handgun round will reliably "put someone down", as in drop dead instantly, even if you hit the vitals, and especially if you don't. It happens, but eventually your going to run into someone who simply doesn't feel like laying down.
Misses don't count, I don't give a **** what you think of the .45 if it doesn't hit vitals its not going to do jack unless you get lucky and hit a sissy.
I'm tired of seeing threads where you hit a guy in the lovehandles and suddenly everyone jumps on that caliber for not instantly killing him.
1. Any round can fail, period. Some fail more offten than others and some failures are operator error, i.e. round not put where it needs to go.
2. When discussing a "stop" as mentioned in Doug's recent quote or most other sources what is not being discussed is a "kill" i.e. the subject dies, what is being discussed is the cessation of hostilites by the agressor which is the goal of any armed defense, death may or may not result but is not a requirement. Talking about "stop" statisitcs and stories second, third or 4th hand through the internet can be very confusing as there are many "stops" atributed to a given caliber that might have been effected with a 380 or a 22 for that matter as once the BG saw a flash and realized things were serious he gave up. Defensive rounds are not designed for this situation, they are designed for the perverbial 300 pound man of muscle on PCP / Meth who is hell bent on homicie and to be stoped must be killed or so injured he can no longer fight, typically the best ways to do this are 1. direct incapacitation of major parts of the CNS (near instantaneous cessation of acticity), 2. Massive blood loss / disruption of the heart(can continue on for many seconds even with a transection of the aorta)
Any common duty round is designed to address these needs so since any round can fail, you are best advised to read the labratory tests as to a given round / caliber performnace and then select what you feel best based on that and then worry most of all not about carrying some magic round but about doing your part and putting them where they need to go
2. When discussing a "stop" as mentioned in Doug's recent quote or most other sources what is not being discussed is a "kill" i.e. the subject dies, what is being discussed is the cessation of hostilites by the agressor which is the goal of any armed defense, death may or may not result but is not a requirement. Talking about "stop" statisitcs and stories second, third or 4th hand through the internet can be very confusing as there are many "stops" atributed to a given caliber that might have been effected with a 380 or a 22 for that matter as once the BG saw a flash and realized things were serious he gave up. Defensive rounds are not designed for this situation, they are designed for the perverbial 300 pound man of muscle on PCP / Meth who is hell bent on homicie and to be stoped must be killed or so injured he can no longer fight, typically the best ways to do this are 1. direct incapacitation of major parts of the CNS (near instantaneous cessation of acticity), 2. Massive blood loss / disruption of the heart(can continue on for many seconds even with a transection of the aorta)
Any common duty round is designed to address these needs so since any round can fail, you are best advised to read the labratory tests as to a given round / caliber performnace and then select what you feel best based on that and then worry most of all not about carrying some magic round but about doing your part and putting them where they need to go
HangFire83
New member
Broke my nose playing basket ball. Hurt like hell. Caught an elbow while sliding over to take a charge. Guy with the ball came in with his elbows leading the way and PRESTO...instant broken nose. First time I ever "saw stars".
#18indycolts
Moderator
what it boils down to is everyone reacts to pain differently...thats why I've seen 300lb biker type guys throw up while getting a tattoo and I've actually fallen asleep before...but if I stub my toe I'm cussing up a storm!
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
RsqVet - great post.
"The sum of anecdotes is not data."
I've heard a few talks by experts in the field and they say what you say. With quality rounds in 38SPL/357, 9mm, 40 SW and 45 ACP - they think most of the variance is the shooter hitting the target.
One important thing is the definition of a 'stop' - no one agrees on that and thus so many reports are baloney.
We have people falling over from a peripheral wound or no wound to Stacey Lim or Cirillo's report of a guy full of buckshot who kept on ticking and fighting till shot in the butt.
"The sum of anecdotes is not data."
I've heard a few talks by experts in the field and they say what you say. With quality rounds in 38SPL/357, 9mm, 40 SW and 45 ACP - they think most of the variance is the shooter hitting the target.
One important thing is the definition of a 'stop' - no one agrees on that and thus so many reports are baloney.
We have people falling over from a peripheral wound or no wound to Stacey Lim or Cirillo's report of a guy full of buckshot who kept on ticking and fighting till shot in the butt.
I've really enjoyed reading the opinions and war/non-war stories. I would interject just a couple of things. One, COM is actually the "motor" of the body (i.e. heart, lungs, etc.) and is the largest area on the target (you could even say the ultimate aiming point is right at the heart, though you might be considered overly optimistic if you expected to actually pierce the heart), so you get increased hit probability (a good thing) and the largest potential for hitting something important (i.e. heart, lungs, etc.). For those reasons, I would hestitate to call aiming at COM "stupid" or any other demeaning adjective.
As for the "knock-down power" of any round--I won't try and argue with anyone using a 12 ga. slug on a groundhog. It's akin to the "knock down power" of a boulder landing on you. But, I have observed a squirrel get literally knocked out of a tree after a hit from a .177 pellet. I have also observed a squirrel get knocked out of a tree after a miss. It literally flew off the branch, landed on the ground, and flopped around. I think it must have arrested from fear or surprise. It ran away. My subtle point being that I think it's difficult to attribute the reaction of the target directly to the projectile used.
I like the idea of 2 to COM, if nothing else, to get the target's mind off of something else, like shooting me. After that, a follow-up or two at the head is a good idea. To parrot the comments of others, I read somewhere that a handgun is an excuse to get into a fight with a bigger gun (rifle, shotgun). I always liked that one.
As for the "knock-down power" of any round--I won't try and argue with anyone using a 12 ga. slug on a groundhog. It's akin to the "knock down power" of a boulder landing on you. But, I have observed a squirrel get literally knocked out of a tree after a hit from a .177 pellet. I have also observed a squirrel get knocked out of a tree after a miss. It literally flew off the branch, landed on the ground, and flopped around. I think it must have arrested from fear or surprise. It ran away. My subtle point being that I think it's difficult to attribute the reaction of the target directly to the projectile used.
I like the idea of 2 to COM, if nothing else, to get the target's mind off of something else, like shooting me. After that, a follow-up or two at the head is a good idea. To parrot the comments of others, I read somewhere that a handgun is an excuse to get into a fight with a bigger gun (rifle, shotgun). I always liked that one.
River rat...nasty photo, another reason for me to think the S&W sigma is a POJ.
Can we all agree that a massive wound to the heart or the brain will most likely kill a man?? The lightswitch comment to me seems to fair, you simply are going for the center of the head. I do believe in chaos theory in defensive shooting, weird thing can happen. Sometimes the bullet bounces in your favor, and sometimes it does not. Increased caliber might give you a slight advantage but in the long run if multiple mini-events makes your .45 bullet miss the heart by a fraction of an inch, your BG can still be standing. Shooting multiple times until your BG drops is probably better then shooting a guy once and assuming that he should be dead.
I know I'm going to get "this is why 9mm is a whimpy round" replies but check out how the bullet bounced in a soldiers favor. If the insurgent just kept shooting this guy would have been dead.
http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/teeth.asp
Remember to brush your teeth
Can we all agree that a massive wound to the heart or the brain will most likely kill a man?? The lightswitch comment to me seems to fair, you simply are going for the center of the head. I do believe in chaos theory in defensive shooting, weird thing can happen. Sometimes the bullet bounces in your favor, and sometimes it does not. Increased caliber might give you a slight advantage but in the long run if multiple mini-events makes your .45 bullet miss the heart by a fraction of an inch, your BG can still be standing. Shooting multiple times until your BG drops is probably better then shooting a guy once and assuming that he should be dead.
I know I'm going to get "this is why 9mm is a whimpy round" replies but check out how the bullet bounced in a soldiers favor. If the insurgent just kept shooting this guy would have been dead.
http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/teeth.asp
Remember to brush your teeth
A 9mm can easily go in and out of a man's skull, so it bone breaking ability is not in question. It just due to angle and a few other factors (perhaps bad ammo) lead this bullet to get stuck in the guy's mouth instead coming out of the back of his head. The same thing might of happened if the insurgent used a .40 or a .45, you never can be sure. Its the way the bullet bounces, If the insurgent kept shooting the soldier in the face, regardless of the caliber, the soldier would probably have been dead. Instead the insurgent was confused, "I shot the guy in the face and he is still standing and not dead?' and in that confusion he stopped shooting and was taken prisoner. You shoot until the guy your shooting at goes down, don't rely on big calibers to be one stop shots, just keep shooting.
Hey now! It went BANG when the trigger was pulled with a round in the pipe, didn't it?
A Glock would have done the same thing. As a matter of fact, I was just talking with a fellow last week who's father-in-law had just shot himself in an extremity while cleaning his pistol. I said "Glock?"
He said "yep."(INSERT VEHEHEMENTLY PRO OR CON GLOCK ARGUMENT HERE)
And, while it does give us an opportunity to reflect on the wisdom of a design which requires the trigger be pulled for disassembly, the real lesson is CHECK YOUR CHAMBER!
Back to the point of this thread...if you pack a pistol, be prepared to empty a lot of rounds into an attacker. If you don't have to, that's great. But do be prepared for it.
And for those who say that shot placement is key: I'm right there with you.
Smoke Screen
New member
Sheesh! Do I feel left out or what?! I'm probably the only one on this thread who hasn't gone to Nam, Korea, broken a bone, got shot, etc... I know, its not glamourous, but I can't say I relate...Amazing stories. Kudos to all who served, and continue to do so. Oh wait, I stepped barefoot on a scorpion one time! That hurt WAAAAY more than a beesting! Seriously!
Bullets are strange things, sometimes they don't kill when they should, and sometimes they kill when they shouldn't. Marinate on that for a while...
Bullets are strange things, sometimes they don't kill when they should, and sometimes they kill when they shouldn't. Marinate on that for a while...
#18indycolts
Moderator
dave-as for having to pull the trigger to disassemble, thats why I love my P99, don't have to pull the trigger to do it.
fett tracking
New member
Quote: Anyone ever fractured a bone? Tell me that didn't hurt.
When I was young, I was riding bmx and flipped over handlebars on a ****ed up trick. I snapped my arm clean in half. From the middle of my forerm to the tip of my hand was bent at what I remember dam close to a 45degree angle perpendicularly to the half of my forearm attatched to my elbow and upper arm.
I got up and got back on my bike, then noticing that my hand was not where it sould be on the grip with my arms in the position they were in...
"Holy **** fool! Your arms bent!"
When I was young, I was riding bmx and flipped over handlebars on a ****ed up trick. I snapped my arm clean in half. From the middle of my forerm to the tip of my hand was bent at what I remember dam close to a 45degree angle perpendicularly to the half of my forearm attatched to my elbow and upper arm.
I got up and got back on my bike, then noticing that my hand was not where it sould be on the grip with my arms in the position they were in...
"Holy **** fool! Your arms bent!"
Many have said to shoot until the threat is over. Many have said to carry as large a caliber as one can shoot well. Many have posted failures to stop by what are thought to be good manstoppers. Those failures validate the first to sentences. Shoot until the threat is over with the largest caliber you can shoot well.
CobrayCommando
Moderator
Actually, wrong. Look at the x ring of center mass targets, its in the guts. Thats what most police agencies teach to aim for these days, the guts.
the heart is well above center mass.
It's amazing.....
It's pretty amazing what the human body can take. The guy could have been on a controlled substance like PCP, in which he would haven't felt anything, or like previously mentioned, the pure adreniline rush.
Even more amazing, I recently watched a video clip from a State Patrolman's cruiser in which after a skirmish with a man the trooper pulled over, the assailant was shot 5 out of 6 rounds from the patrolman's S&W with .357 +P hollow point and lived. The assailant shot the patrolman with one round from a .22 derringer, which struck the trooper in the side of the rib cage, between the front and back of his vest, and severed his aorta.
How you live through 5 rounds of .357 +P center mass is beyond me. I just hope that guy felt the injection in his arm when they executed him.
WeaponX
"you sleep peacefully in your beds at night because good men stand guard willing to do harm on your behalf"
It's pretty amazing what the human body can take. The guy could have been on a controlled substance like PCP, in which he would haven't felt anything, or like previously mentioned, the pure adreniline rush.
Even more amazing, I recently watched a video clip from a State Patrolman's cruiser in which after a skirmish with a man the trooper pulled over, the assailant was shot 5 out of 6 rounds from the patrolman's S&W with .357 +P hollow point and lived. The assailant shot the patrolman with one round from a .22 derringer, which struck the trooper in the side of the rib cage, between the front and back of his vest, and severed his aorta.
How you live through 5 rounds of .357 +P center mass is beyond me. I just hope that guy felt the injection in his arm when they executed him.
WeaponX
"you sleep peacefully in your beds at night because good men stand guard willing to do harm on your behalf"