1911 trigger job
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
How light is "light" in pounds?Mulespurs said:
As others have commented, a good 1911 trigger that has no creep and no grit has essentially zero travel after initial take-up to release. A good 5-pound trigger job feels like a lot less.
Perhaps when talking about "light" triggers, one has to take into consideration one's own experience.
For instance, most single action autos seem light to me because I'm used to DA revolver shooting where a 9-pound trigger seems powder-puffy and a 12-pound DA is very normal to me.
As a result, the 7-pound triggers on my Browning High Powers, because they are very crisp, also seem "light."
I have one Ruger 9 mm 1911 that came out of the box with a 3.5 pound trigger.
I'll be increasing that fairly soon as I don't like it what with my "heavy" trigger fingers.
Maybe that's another equation: How "heavy" is your trigger finger?
For instance, most single action autos seem light to me because I'm used to DA revolver shooting where a 9-pound trigger seems powder-puffy and a 12-pound DA is very normal to me.
As a result, the 7-pound triggers on my Browning High Powers, because they are very crisp, also seem "light."
I have one Ruger 9 mm 1911 that came out of the box with a 3.5 pound trigger.
I'll be increasing that fairly soon as I don't like it what with my "heavy" trigger fingers.
Maybe that's another equation: How "heavy" is your trigger finger?
mikejonestkd
New member
I have one older 70 series Gold cup that has a 3lb trigger. Its strictly for bullseye shooting.
My other 1911s have triggers that are all in the 4-5lb pound range and that it just about perfect for me.
IMO the amount of take up and creep are more important than pull weight.
My other 1911s have triggers that are all in the 4-5lb pound range and that it just about perfect for me.
IMO the amount of take up and creep are more important than pull weight.
I have not often carried an auto (I prefer a revolver for carry), but a 1911A1 one I have carried some has a 7 pound pull. I know that will horrify the "2 ounces is too heavy" crowd, but a self defense situation is no place for a target trigger. YOU probably think that in a time of stress YOU will be calm, cool, collected and in complete control of YOUR hands (and other bodily functions). YOU will be able to have full control of YOUR handgun and YOU will never fire a shot accidentally, or miss that neat oval every bad guy has painted on his chest in your fantasies. If you believe that, you better stop smoking funny weed and having delusions.
In a gunfight, you will have lots of problems and having your pistol with the super light trigger spraying bullets all over the county will achieve nothing except make YOU a target for any LE folks who happen on the scene.
So, no, I do not recommend light pulls on a SD gun, even for experienced cops. Three or even four pounds is TOO LIGHT.
Jim
In a gunfight, you will have lots of problems and having your pistol with the super light trigger spraying bullets all over the county will achieve nothing except make YOU a target for any LE folks who happen on the scene.
So, no, I do not recommend light pulls on a SD gun, even for experienced cops. Three or even four pounds is TOO LIGHT.
Jim
Jim Watson
New member
Never heard back from the OP, don't know if he wanted to set up a perfectly reasonable target pistol or was channeling the B western gunfighter with hair trigger. Don't know if he was trying to learn a demanding DIY one question at a time, or thought a premiere trigger came in a baggie, or was going to consult a competent gunsmith.
All he "learned" was that a 3 lb 1911 trigger was next to impossible to achieve, dangerous to attempt, and irresponsible to use.
Good show.
All he "learned" was that a 3 lb 1911 trigger was next to impossible to achieve, dangerous to attempt, and irresponsible to use.
Good show.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Possibly a coincidence, or maybe not -- someone using a different screen name asked essentially the same question on the M1911.org forum, on the same date, and received pretty much the same answers.
Wilson combat makes a lot of guns ( full sized CQB model and Protector models as an example ) and their shop tunes those guns with 3 1/2 lb to 4 1/2 lb triggers in them....and they are certainly safe to carry.
I have 2 of wilson's guns...a CQB in .45 acp with a trigger I measured at 4 lbs and I carried it for about 15 yrs.....and a Protector model in 9mm that has a trigger I have measured at 3.75 lbs ...and I have carried it for the last 2 yrs. Their triggers are very good / no slack, no creep and they break crisply.
3 lbs is a little light....but 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 lb triggers are just fine for well made 1911's...that are designed for carry in my view....to tell the OP he needs a 5 or 6 lb trigger, or heavier in a carry gun is nonsense.
At the same time... trigger jobs are not for amateurs in my view...but I trust Wilson Combat to make and service my 1911's when or if they need it / my current 9mm Protector is about 11 yrs old now, with about 200,000 rds thru it ( I shoot it a lot, train tactically weekly with it ) and I expect to carry and shoot it for another 10 yrs - and another 200,000 rds...while I have broken an extractor and the slide lock frame tube on it..( and in both cases it was air freighted back to Wilson- and returned repaired to me in less than 10 days ) ..the trigger has never failed ...and certainly no accidental discharges being drawn from a holster at my local range dozens of times a week...
I have 2 of wilson's guns...a CQB in .45 acp with a trigger I measured at 4 lbs and I carried it for about 15 yrs.....and a Protector model in 9mm that has a trigger I have measured at 3.75 lbs ...and I have carried it for the last 2 yrs. Their triggers are very good / no slack, no creep and they break crisply.
3 lbs is a little light....but 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 lb triggers are just fine for well made 1911's...that are designed for carry in my view....to tell the OP he needs a 5 or 6 lb trigger, or heavier in a carry gun is nonsense.
At the same time... trigger jobs are not for amateurs in my view...but I trust Wilson Combat to make and service my 1911's when or if they need it / my current 9mm Protector is about 11 yrs old now, with about 200,000 rds thru it ( I shoot it a lot, train tactically weekly with it ) and I expect to carry and shoot it for another 10 yrs - and another 200,000 rds...while I have broken an extractor and the slide lock frame tube on it..( and in both cases it was air freighted back to Wilson- and returned repaired to me in less than 10 days ) ..the trigger has never failed ...and certainly no accidental discharges being drawn from a holster at my local range dozens of times a week...
Unless a range gun don't drop below 4 lbs. or a bit more. Had Wilson Combat do a competition trigger job on one of my 1911's. Hit right at a smooth 3.25 lbs.. First time I shot it I did a double tap without trying. It was too light for a carry gun. Under stress and adrenaline it would not be wise at all.
Also I don't carry 1911's much anymore. If you're used to the longer, heavier trigger pull of other guns then switch. It's a disaster waiting to happen. And if you do have it done. Send it to one of the trusted, established businesses. Seen lots of 1911's about ruined by "gunsmith's".
Also I don't carry 1911's much anymore. If you're used to the longer, heavier trigger pull of other guns then switch. It's a disaster waiting to happen. And if you do have it done. Send it to one of the trusted, established businesses. Seen lots of 1911's about ruined by "gunsmith's".
BigJimP,
Somehow I can't bring myself to believe "train tactically weekly" will duplicate the adrenaline rush of a real confrontation. I believe the expectations of a competition (game) are far different than facing real danger.
Perhaps I just don't have that much confidence in myself handling what I consider a light trigger no matter how much I can train. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I already have a "heavy" trigger finger from a lot of DA revolver training through the years.
Somehow I can't bring myself to believe "train tactically weekly" will duplicate the adrenaline rush of a real confrontation. I believe the expectations of a competition (game) are far different than facing real danger.
Perhaps I just don't have that much confidence in myself handling what I consider a light trigger no matter how much I can train. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I already have a "heavy" trigger finger from a lot of DA revolver training through the years.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
I agree.UncleEd said:
I've been shooting 1911s since my Army days in 1967. My day-to-day carry pistols are set at 4-1/2 to 5 pounds (well, really, they are ALL set to 4-1/2 to 5 pounds, since one never knows when any firearm might be used for self-defense). I have encountered 1911s with triggers in the 3 to 3-1/2 pound range, and they always surprise me. Muscle memory is persistent -- the difference between 3-1/2 and 4-1/2 pounds doesn't sound like much, but when the trigger finger is trained to expect 4-1/2 pounds of resistance, that 22 percent reduction is significant. Those light triggers shoot nicely, but the first few shots always "go off before they're supposed to" due to muscle memory.
I've seen videos of IPSC competitions in which competitors were disqualified because the first shot "went off" while the muzzle was still pointed at 45 to 60 degrees below horizontal, while the shooter was still completing his draw/presentation. How could this happen? I can only surmise adrenaline rush.
And that's withOUT any adrenaline dump from an actual confrontation. I've followed the writings of many of the respected trainers around the country and most are in agreement that 4-1/2 pounds is the minimum trigger weight for a 1911 that may be used for self defense. You're all adults and entitled to make your own decisions. Personally, I'm risk-aversive. I hope and pray that I'll never use one of my guns to shoot another human being. If I ever have to do that, I don't want to be in court trying to explain with I had a 3-pound trigger when all the best trainers have said repeatedly that 4-1/2 pounds is the minimum that's safe for self defense carry.
This is why the NYPD mandates a special "New York" trigger for their duty weapons (and, I believe, for off-duty carry weapons). The stock trigger from Glcok is around 5-1/2 pounds. The NYPD doesn't think even that is safe, and have established an 11-pound trigger as the standard for the NYPD. Just Google "Glock+NY+trigger"
I got to thinking about this, pondering all the different combinations of things that could cause a 1911A1 to full auto fire, to see if I could prove, or disprove that statement.
Until Captain Obvious whispered in my ear that I was overthinking it. OF COURSE, with the parts in proper working order, the gun does NOT full auto fire! Preventing full auto fire is the reason the disconnector is in the gun in the first place!!
The 1911A1 can, and has gone full auto. ALWAYS because some combination of parts is not working correctly, and from what I have heard and seen, nearly always because someone tried to "improve" the trigger pull.
I am of the opinion that going below 3lbs trigger pull is a STUPID idea., and even 3.5lbs or 4lbs can become unsafe, if the alterations to the parts were not done "just right".
Too light a trigger and you are into the zone where the hammer can be jarred off full cock. And, also into the zone where you can get a "bump fire", full auto.
Clean & crisp, without excess take up or overtravel matters more than the actual pull weight. If you aren't winning matches with a 4lb or even a 3.5lb trigger, it isn't the trigger pull weight you need to be improving.
And its simply begging for trouble to put an uber light trigger pull in a carry gun.
Training ...is the only alternative to actually confronting danger...and probably 99.99 % of us will never have to confront anyone with a loaded weapon in our hands... ( and I certainly have not confronted anyone in the 30+ yrs I have been carrying ) ../ and training creates muscle memory, that is part of the point of training ..and competing with my buddies weekly - for me at least.
The 3.75 trigger I have in my Wilson 9mm....is not the reason I beat my buddies most weeks in our training sessions / its practice,practice, practice...
I stand by my opinion that 3 1/2 - 4 1/2 triggers in well made 1911's are perfect for carry guns ( and in my mind, is proven by the two guns I have from Wilson Combat )... / ..and the other point I was trying to make is - I don't treat my Wilsons as only range guns or safe queens...I put a lot of rounds thru them ...and test them and my skill level weekly.
The 3.75 trigger I have in my Wilson 9mm....is not the reason I beat my buddies most weeks in our training sessions / its practice,practice, practice...
I stand by my opinion that 3 1/2 - 4 1/2 triggers in well made 1911's are perfect for carry guns ( and in my mind, is proven by the two guns I have from Wilson Combat )... / ..and the other point I was trying to make is - I don't treat my Wilsons as only range guns or safe queens...I put a lot of rounds thru them ...and test them and my skill level weekly.
Wolff says 16 pounds is factory. Not that it really matters.
Three pounds is too light unless it's a pure target pistol. Fail to follow through correctly and it might go FA under recoil. It'd be the shooter bumping the trigger like doubles with an M14 style rifle vs anything else. Still decidedly exciting.
However, doing a 1911A1 trigger isn't difficult nor particularly dangerous. There are lots of reliable sources of how-to's online and in books. Just changing the springs will help. Not as much as a proper trigger job.
Three pounds is too light unless it's a pure target pistol. Fail to follow through correctly and it might go FA under recoil. It'd be the shooter bumping the trigger like doubles with an M14 style rifle vs anything else. Still decidedly exciting.
However, doing a 1911A1 trigger isn't difficult nor particularly dangerous. There are lots of reliable sources of how-to's online and in books. Just changing the springs will help. Not as much as a proper trigger job.
16 lbs would be correct for a recoil spring,which has little to do with a trigger job .....(snicker) Guffaw!! ROFL!!!
And,regarding 23 vs 28 for a MAINSPRING, I agree its not worth arguing.I said 28,I was corrected to 23 lb.No big deal,I let it go.
But since the whizzing contest persists,for no particular good reason
Kuhnhausen, "A Shop Manual" Vol 2,3rd edition,paperback ...in mine,its page
156. Figure 157.
Drawing :M1911/1911A1 mainspring (hammer spring) specification ,spring rate,27.7 lbs at free length of 2.156 in. rate,compressed to 1.062 is 29.5 +/- 2 lbs
I rest my case,(snicker)
And,regarding 23 vs 28 for a MAINSPRING, I agree its not worth arguing.I said 28,I was corrected to 23 lb.No big deal,I let it go.
But since the whizzing contest persists,for no particular good reason
Kuhnhausen, "A Shop Manual" Vol 2,3rd edition,paperback ...in mine,its page
156. Figure 157.
Drawing :M1911/1911A1 mainspring (hammer spring) specification ,spring rate,27.7 lbs at free length of 2.156 in. rate,compressed to 1.062 is 29.5 +/- 2 lbs
I rest my case,(snicker)
Springfield pistols with the Internal Locking System did have 28# mainsprings.
Today, 23# is widely accepted standard for the mainspring, and 16# for the recoil spring, but if you extrapolate from the early military specs, taking into account the different method of measuring the rating, the recoil spring should be closer to a modern 14# spring.
Today, 23# is widely accepted standard for the mainspring, and 16# for the recoil spring, but if you extrapolate from the early military specs, taking into account the different method of measuring the rating, the recoil spring should be closer to a modern 14# spring.
Most mfg's of 1911's....will recommend different weights of recoil springs ...based on the barrel length and the caliber....9mm and .45 acp do not both use a 16lb recoil spring in a 5" gun...( but that is not the topic the OP was asking about )... / personally I like a 12.5 lb recoil spring in my 5" 9mm 1911 and a 16 lb spring in my 5" .45 acp 1911..
Jim Watson
New member
I don't know what the GI mainspring works out to be - it, like the recoil spring was no doubt originally specified by dimensions, not an arbitrary poundage - but I know one will wear the hammer hooks right off a Gold Cup in short order. I put a surplus spring in my Gold Cup because the Colt NM spring would not reliably fire .22s in the Conversion Unit. The GI would, until the hammer wore out.
I found a drawing showing the mainspring at 22 lb load at 1.312", 29 lb at 1.062", presumably the hammer down and hammer cocked compression, respectively.
The drawing's spring RATE of 27.69 (Kuhnhausen's 27.7) is the non-firearms descriptor and is actually in pounds load to compress by one inch.
This checks since 29 - 22 = 7lb and 1.312-1.062 = .25".
7 lb additional load/.25" additional compression = 28 lb/in RATE. Pretty close to 27.69, considering that the nominal loads have a two lb tolerance.
Snicker your ownself.
I found a drawing showing the mainspring at 22 lb load at 1.312", 29 lb at 1.062", presumably the hammer down and hammer cocked compression, respectively.
The drawing's spring RATE of 27.69 (Kuhnhausen's 27.7) is the non-firearms descriptor and is actually in pounds load to compress by one inch.
This checks since 29 - 22 = 7lb and 1.312-1.062 = .25".
7 lb additional load/.25" additional compression = 28 lb/in RATE. Pretty close to 27.69, considering that the nominal loads have a two lb tolerance.
Snicker your ownself.
The snicker was for O'Heir.
It is annoying,isn't it.
Lots of folks use lighter mainsprings.Agreed,16 lbs is the stock spring for a 5 in 45,and then folks use what works.I have a 14 lb in my Commander size 45.The slide was not staying back on empty with a 16 lb using factory hardball.
It is annoying,isn't it.
Lots of folks use lighter mainsprings.Agreed,16 lbs is the stock spring for a 5 in 45,and then folks use what works.I have a 14 lb in my Commander size 45.The slide was not staying back on empty with a 16 lb using factory hardball.
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