1911 for home defense

salvadore said:
Doc, I think you stumbled into the church forum, awful lot of preachin goin on. If you fear for your life you should probably defend yourself and worry about the state laws later....
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People have a choice. They can try to learn and understand the laws relating to the use of force to help them make the right decisions, or they can choose to remain ignorant and risk some serious consequences. If one chooses to remain ignorant, he doesn't have to visit here and ask questions.

Consider also that the consequences of violence can be serious even when even when your use of lethal force is ultimately found to be justified. Consider --

  • This couple, arrested in early April and finally exonerated under Missouri's Castle Doctrine in early June. And no doubt after incurring expenses for bail and a lawyer, as well as a couple of month's anxiety, before being cleared.

  • Larry Hickey, in gun friendly Arizona: He was arrested, spent 71 days in jail, went through two different trials ending in hung juries, was forced to move from his house, etc., before the DA decided it was a good shoot and dismissed the charges.

  • Mark Abshire in Oklahoma: Despite defending himself against multiple attackers on his own lawn in a fairly gun-friendly state with a "Stand Your Ground" law, he was arrested, went to jail, charged, lost his job and his house, and spent two and a half years in the legal meat-grinder before finally being acquitted.

  • Harold Fish, also in gun friendly Arizona: He was still convicted and sent to prison. He won his appeal, his conviction was overturned, and a new trial was ordered. The DA chose to dismiss the charges rather than retry Mr. Fish.

  • Gerald Ung: He was attacked by several men, and the attack was captured on video. He was nonetheless charged and brought to trial. He was ultimately acquitted.

  • Some good folks in clear jeopardy and with no way to preserve their lives except by the use of lethal force against other humans. Yet that happened under circumstances in which their justification for the use of lethal force was not immediately clear. While each was finally exonerated, it came at great emotional and financial cost. And perhaps there but for the grace of God will go one of us.

  • And note also that two of those cases arose in States with a Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground law in effect at the time.
 
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I asked for thoughts and I got them....and I am thankful for all of the answers.

I am somewhat familiar with the law in Virginia as regards self defense and protection of your life inside your home. I have also read a little bit of the case law. I know the things that must be part of a defense if I were to be charged with homicide

My question (3:16 yesterday) actually had more to do with the deliberate use of what might be considered a suboptimal round for the first shot in home defense. (Here I am referring to birdshot as suboptimal in comparison with hollow points) By the time one fires the first shot the consideration of the application of the law and its ramifications has already been decided (right or wrong) by the shooter.

The law was not really part of the question.

In fairness to the responders I sort of invited a measure of vitriol when I was using humor in the opening post of the thread.

I didn't mean to imply that I take firearms, lethal force, death or serious injury lightly although I do acknowledge that a casual reader of the post might infer that I do.
 
My question (3:16 yesterday) actually had more to do with the deliberate use of what might be considered a suboptimal round for the first shot in home defense.
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Why even consider a round that is less likely to be effective than a standard defensive round?
 
I think it comes from:

1. A natural aversion from killing someone. If we could have phasers on stun, would you rather use that?

2. The mantra of why didn't you shoot him or her in the knee, wound them, etc. Another suggestion to disable rather than use lethal force.

I was taking my CHL test once and shot it well (yeah, right the TX test isn't William Tell level). Some guy tells me I should miss some shots because if I go to court, they would say I should have shot him in the knee. This guy knew because he was a 'sniper'. :rolleyes:
 
Yes, the "Spring Wars" go back and forth, only time we'll know for sure is through some sort of long term testing. IMHO buying quality magazines, making sure they work properly (Yes, I DID get some M1911 magazines of uncertain provenance and YES, several did NOT work properly.Found that out at the range,fortunately.) and perhaps looking at the springs, see if they seem robust enough,are bent properly,function with dummy rounds and with live ammo, you should be good to go. Jeff Cooper advocated "Cocked and Locked",make sure your safety engages and disengages smoothly and you are completely familiar with it.
 
Sig

It is a good point.

Magazines are not that expensive that if a spring gets weak, a person can just go out and buy a new one.

The ones I used in the NAV were old with a capital "O" and they worked fine.
 
I've had a 1911 as a home defense and CCW gun for about 16 years, same 8 rd mags never a problem.

What I dont do is carry 8+1 or seat a full 8rd flush fit mag because I noticed a full 8rd flush fit mag has left dents in the top cartridge sometimes excessive if I tap it in place hard enough. I dont have this problem with the 8rd mags with an extended base pad it has much more final compression available after 8rds inserted.
 
Posted by salvadore: If you fear for your life you should probably defend yourself and worry about the state laws later.
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Personal thresholds of trepidation vary, and whether an individual experiences fear is but one small part of the equation.

It behooves everyone who possesses a firearm or a tire iron or a nine iron to read Frank's post on the fundamentals of use of force laws.

Having said that, I am compelled to add that one should not be looking for ways to justify the use of force, deadly or otherwise. Force should be used only when there is no other alternative.
 
People have a choice. They can try to learn and understand the laws relating to the use of force to help them make the right decisions, or they can choose to remain ignorant and risk some serious consequences. If one chooses to remain ignorant, he doesn't have to visit here and ask questions.

Consider also that the consequences of violence can be serious even when even when your use of lethal force is ultimately found to be justified. Consider --

This couple, arrested in early April and finally exonerated under Missouri's Castle Doctrine in early June. And no doubt after incurring expenses for bail and a lawyer, as well as a couple of month's anxiety, before being cleared.


Larry Hickey, in gun friendly Arizona: He was arrested, spent 71 days in jail, went through two different trials ending in hung juries, was forced to move from his house, etc., before the DA decided it was a good shoot and dismissed the charges.


Mark Abshire in Oklahoma: Despite defending himself against multiple attackers on his own lawn in a fairly gun-friendly state with a "Stand Your Ground" law, he was arrested, went to jail, charged, lost his job and his house, and spent two and a half years in the legal meat-grinder before finally being acquitted.


Harold Fish, also in gun friendly Arizona: He was still convicted and sent to prison. He won his appeal, his conviction was overturned, and a new trial was ordered. The DA chose to dismiss the charges rather than retry Mr. Fish.


Gerald Ung: He was attacked by several men, and the attack was captured on video. He was nonetheless charged and brought to trial. He was ultimately acquitted.


Some good folks in clear jeopardy and with no way to preserve their lives except by the use of lethal force against other humans. Yet that happened under circumstances in which their justification for the use of lethal force was not immediately clear. While each was finally exonerated, it came at great emotional and financial cost. And perhaps there but for the grace of God will go one of us.


And note also that two of those cases arose in States with a Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground law in effect at the time.
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Frank has some excellent points. By reading the above, and other post regarding SD shootings, tells me that just as important as a firearm, is CCW insurance. It's surprisingly inexpensive. A heck of a lot cheaper then loosing our home to prove your case.

Something else I hardly ever see covered in these topics is what happens afterwards.

I guarantee you, If you have to take another's life, and its a ligit shooting, no arrest, no trial, 100% free,.................its gonna haunt you the rest of your life. I don't care how mean and tough we sound on the internet, its gonna get you.

There is no property worth that in my opinion. If you're worried about some bandit running off with your wallet, or tv, buy insurance.

I would never consider using deadly force for property crimes.

Just my humble opinion.
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A 1911 is fine for home defense or carry. I have carried one since Dec. 1969. I carry 7 in the mag ,1 in the pipe cocked and locked, 2 mags in a carrier that stay with 7 rounds each. I hope and pray that the only thing I ever shoot at is targets. Which rounds you carry in it is yours to decide, how you treat your mags again up to you. Learn the laws in your state, practice, practice, practice then practice some more. Finally if you ever do have to defend yourself learn these 3 quotes 1 I was in fear for my life, 2 I stopped the threat 3 I want to talk to a lawyer. This is the time to shut up till you can calm down and think straight before making any statement that gets you into more trouble because you misspoke. Having to take a life is something that each person has to deal with and no one can truly prepare you for it but if you are still alive you can learn to deal with it.
 
kraigy's right, ya don't wanna shoot someone runnin off with your stuff. However, I don't think I'd be haunted if I was forced to shoot a sociopath in defence of my family or myself. Of course I haven't shot a lot of people..hardly any...OK, none, but hope I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
 
Great advice from Frank........I truly hope I never have to defend my home or family.

I know that if I do have to...........it will haunt me for the rest of my days.
 
I would like to add about the psychological consequences. It's been found that with some males, they avoid the consequences which occur even with the 'good shoot'. That leads to substance abuse and family problems and worse. One should seek professional advice if suffering from such.

It's common on the Internet to say that "I" wouldn't because I'm tough, etc. Not necessarily true.

Psychological consequences of long term severity are not guaranteed but one should be aware of such and not be reluctant to act on such due to self-image, etc.
 
There's a live discussion elsewhere on TFL about the mag spring issue ... I once saw a reply to such a question from an engineer who worked with springs for various uses. His comment ... springs wear out from use, not from being compressed and left alone. If you use the same mag at the range over and over, you might want to replace it after a while or swap the springs. If the mag springs are simply compressed, especially in understressed 1911 mags, they can last a lifetime. Unless the spring coils are mashed against each other, no problemo. I use a Springer 1911 Loaded for my nightstand gun, loaded with Hornady Critical Defense rounds, mag is full and there's one in the chamber. It got its place of honor because 1) it's got night sights, and I love seeing them glowing next to me when the lights go out; easy to find in the dark, easy to aim and 2) I shoot it better than any of my other guns and it has never failed to fire or eject in the six years I've owned it ... with a spare mag, 9p Surefire light and a SOG fixed-blade knife also in the nightstand, I think I'm good to go ...
 
Doc...

I carry a 1911 style handgun as a primary duty gun. Some of these facts have already been posted, but I'll reiterate:

1. It is not the compression of the springs that weakens them, it is the constant loading and unloading. Yes, I do carry five loaded 8 round magazines on my duty belt. When I got the magazines, I changed the factory springs with Wolff +5% springs, loaded them and left them alone. I do change the springs annually. Absolutely no problems.

2. There are two people that you should talk to about the legal aspect of shooting in self defense. The first is your local prosecutor. If the worst should happen, you will be seeing him or her once, at a grand jury--hopefully not twice, during the criminal trial. The second is your personal attorney, to discuss the tort that will follow from the relatives of the person who got shot.

3. Be aware that the person who confronts you--and is likely to be the one that gets shot--will ALWAYS be in the process of "turning their life around", "could not hurt a fly", "is a kind and funny guy", et cetera, ad nauseam, ad infinitum. In other words, public opinion may not be on your side.

4. Not only addressed to you, but to others as well: Be well advised that a shot person is NOT a quiet person. Their speech is normally not well ordered, and they don't just lay there. And it's never clean.

However, if you make the conscious decision to arm yourself for the protection of yourself and your family, good for you. That's one of the things we do as the heads of our households--the "leader of the pack". And note I did not mention "men"--women are just as capable. (Don't think so? Try playing with a bear cub anywhere around momma. :eek:)

I believe the .45 ACP cartridge to be the ultimate defensive cartridge--and the 1911 to be the quintessential defensive handgun. If I could not have a 1911, I'd go for a Model 625 Smith and Wesson (pre-sidelock, thank you) with a number of moon clips loaded with 230 grain Hydra Shok.
 
Powderman, Zenfly and TM3

Thanks for the wink back guys.

To FM12, I agree with the drinking habits of the GMs. I knew a GM who got into a fist fight with a urinal in Toulon. The urinal was destroyed but his hands were so beat up, he nearly died from loss of blood.

But there was no more capable breed when it came to small arms.

To Powderman,

My thought is that your sense of human nature is pretty accurate. As I said in my very first post, the purchase of this 1911 had nothing to do whatsoever with home defense. It was motivated purely by nostalgia. I am under no illusion regarding the sobriety that must accompany any plan which might result in the use of a firearm against someone else.

Zenfly,

The first thing I did with my RIA was to replace the grips. Got black hard plastic checkered grips. I am a sucker for nostalgia.
 
Try this exercise. With an unloaded and cleared 1911 set your alarm for 3am. Make sure the alarm is on the loudest setting. Immediately after the alarm goes off then grab the 1911 and see if you can work it.

I woke up from a good sleep this morning and was asked to move a car. I couldnt do it...not immediately.

Most people will find a revolver is good for bedside defensive needs. Its easier to work coming from a deep sleep.
 
If you're too tired to figure out a thumb safety that you've trained with, you're probably not in a state of mind to be making judgement calls that could involve possibly shooting someone.
 
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