1911 cocked and unlocked carry

In anticipation of the coming dark age, I have purchased an old school Rock Island GI-type 1911. It will live in a Safariland ALS holster which is similar to my duty one: Positive retention lock, covered trigger.

I would've sprung for the Series 80-type firing pin safety, but wanted a plain-jane GI-type weapon, and the Rock Island was what was available, Kalifornia DOJ list and all that. I might have it nickel plated someday, like in "The Killer Elite"...

I got the exact same gun, late last year. I wanted something close to JMB's original for a first 1911. Mine's been good (after replacing the slide catch).

Nickel plating? I wouldn't bother, on this gun. This is a $400 gun. Sell it off, and get exactly what you decide you really want.

but I am thinking about carrying cocked and UNlocked.

"Uhhhh.... No." This question was asked in a BookFace 1911 group I follow. A surprising number of respondents seem to carry this way. It seems like insanity to me.

What you want is an ambi safety. Have Rock Island install one. (Having someone else play gunsmith on your RIA will void the warranty.) Or spend a few more bucks and get Rock Island's basic "Tactical" model, with ambi safety and better sights.
 
And if you do somehow pull the trigger while drawing the gun? But of course you would never do that. Ever. Well, hardly ever. Or shoot your self? Not very often.

Install an ambi safety and use it.

Jim
 
"...an old school Rock Island GI-type 1911..." Isn't a collector piece. Have the ambidextrous safety put on. Carrying any 1911 or 1911A1 with a round in the chamber and the safety off is asking for trouble. Moreso after you have the trigger job required on any new firearm done.
 
Cocked and unlocked is just a bad idea in my mind.../ not worth the risk ...

Putting an ambi safety on is relatively inexpensive ...

No, I've never seen a series 70 discharge because it was dropped....but even if you buy a series 80, I still would not recommend carrying it cocked and unlocked.
 
Jim Watson, I don't think anyone said it was ""no different from a Glock". I just asked if it was "really all that different" and different from the general method we see on pistols like Glocks. I certainly mentioned the trigger difference, though not with any technical detail. Speaking of technical details, Sharkbite raises some issues that are worth considering.

As I said before, I'm a DA/SA guy. I'm usually carrying either a revolver or a DA/SA semi with the hammer down and safety off. It's what works for me. That said, I do own some of those popular striker-fired guns without manual safeties and I have owned a 1911. I don't generally carry them - except to the range in a box. So I wouldn't do what the OP is suggesting. The key point that I'm glad resonated with some people is that these are personal choices and it is up to us to take them seriously and perform them safely. This thread looks like a good start to that process. :)
 
Cosmodragoon: "I don't think anyone said it was ""no different from a Glock"."

Maybe not in THIS thread. The subject comes up amazingly often.

Bill: I went for a good while in Condition 2 - hammer down over a loaded chamber. I still have the Commander as modified for the purpose, with a GI wide spur hammer replacing the rowell. When I realized I was acting on the advice of a southpaw who had grown up with guns before ambidextrous safeties were invented, I rethought the matter and went Condition 1 - cocked and locked.
I also have acquaintance with DA revolvers, DA/SA autos, and DAO autos.
They are all safe enough if you keep your wits about you.
But I am not comfortable with Condition Zero.


The OP is lefthanded and needs an ambi safety that holds up.
I know a ham-handed southpaw who managed to wreck two of the usual Swenson type safeties. I recommended he put on a King which was the best I knew of at the time. It lasted longer for him but eventually gave up the ghost. He gave up on manual safety guns and went Glock.
I think you can do better now, I think the Wilson and EGW types I mentioned above are the best bets.
 
He gave up on manual safety guns and went Glock.

I don't want to tie a rock to this idea while it's trying to swim, but that's another viable route. Either trade the 1911 or keep it for home, range, etc. Go with one of those popular striker guns that don't have a manual safety. (It doesn't have to be a Glock.) You could even try another style altogether. You can still get one in .45acp. It will be lighter to carry and probably have higher capacity for "the coming dark age" too. :)
 
What tactical advantage does anyone expect to gain by not having to deactivate the 1911 safety, 0.2 of a second? :rolleyes:

Someone who is so excited that he can't think to deactivate a safety probably can't do a lot of other things very well, either. More training is needed if that is the case. Mine is cocked and locked, as it was meant to be.

.
 
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I carried 1911s for a while before eventually trying some other platforms. Every now and then the safety would actually disengage itself while I was out and about moving with the gun on my hip. Sitting, standing, occasionally bumping into things. Sometimes it would end up flipping itself off. I can imagine that this could also happen in reverse, bump into something or rub against something by accident and your safety somehow engages, or maybe you engage it yourself and forget about it. What happens if you actually need to use the gun in this case and you can't simply thumb the safety down? Just get an ambi. If you ever take down a gun with an ambi safety you'll find that it really doesn't mess with the basic design at all. Instead of a pin going straight through, 2 shorter pins connect on each side that fit snug. No crazy frame modifications needed or anything, just a pair of grips cut to accommodate the safety on the right side of the gun.
 
I just don't want to be Tex Grebner, OK?

Thanks again for the feedback. I'm waiting to pick up the pistol from gun jail, so talking about this is fascinating to me right now.

Regarding the platform, I have chosen this weapon for aesthetic reasons, and also because of current and pending (unconstitutional) magazine bans. My duty handgun is the M&P .40, and my CCWs are generally either a J-frame Smith or a Glock 19.

I live in a world where my legally owned Glock 19, that I've had for nearly 30 years, is illegal to use...welcome to L.A.!

As a LEO, I'm technically exempt, but for ethical reasons, I wanted a weapon that is legal for the general public.

The improved 1911s strike me as garish, and I wanted a GI-type 1911. The Rock Island has some subtle improvements, but retains the classic lines. However, the identical handgun in nickel is not on the CA DOJ list (park'd OK, nickel NO-GO, go figure...44 AMP is on target regarding the list...we've really gone down the rabbit hole here...).

I'm getting this gun to shoot, and want to get into some 2- and 3-gun matches. I bought 500 rounds of hardball with the gun, and plan to break it in good. I don't plan any mods, except new grips (the Rock Island ones are hideous).

If it bites me, I might need to fix that, but I've never had that problem before.

I'm not a fan of Condition 2 carry because of the risk inherent in dropping the hammer, and also the different muscle memory one would need to train. It looks cool, though...

What tactical advantage does anyone expect to gain by not having to deactivate the 1911 safety, 0.2 of a second?

Someone who is so excited that he can't think to deactivate a safety probably can't do a lot of other things very well, either. More training is needed if that is the case. Mine is cocked and locked, as it was meant to be.

Yeah, I get it, and agree, but I've got two issues: I'm left-handed, so I need to modify the gun, and my duty weapon doesn't have a manual safety, so I'm training different muscle-memory. I'm questioning why cocked and locked, in this very narrow circumstance is "meant to be". I know it puts me out on a limb...

Jeff Cooper once said that while he did not recommend off-safe carry, he knew of a super spook agency that did so, with no ADs reported.

I remember reading that when I was a kid! I don't think I would ever recommend it to anyone, and I appreciate the advice from the very learned staff members I've been reading here for years. I am still just trying to evaluate the idea from the aspect of practical reality. I know that at the end of the day, it's my foot, or thigh.

The 1911 has .020" of sear engagement holding back a 23 lb mainspring. The Glock has a .100" striker lug against a partly tensioned 5 lb spring.

I guess this is the crux of it.

...ambidextrous safety doesn't really mess with the simplicity of the basic platform. It's just an additional lever on the other side. There's no modification to the gun. All the fitting is done on the safety.

I'll check out the King, Wilson and EGW. Even if I do put the ambi safety on, I'm still concerned about the difference between my duty weapon and the 1911. The reason I went with the Safariland ALS is that it's the same type of holster I use at work. The manual safety is a difference from the other weapons I carry, hence my desire to avoid it if reasonably possible.

Reholstering would probably be my biggest worry about cocked and unlocked. All it would take is for something to make positive contact with that trigger(thumb snap, belt loop, etc.) and boom.

That was a concern I had, but then I realized I block the hammer with my thumb while reholstering, so practically it wouldn't happen. Try it.

Finally, the drop test is moot if it is an inertial firing pin induced UD, because that would occur regardless of manual safety use in any gun without a firing pin block, so we're only talking about sear-failure malfunctions.
 
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Just read through the thread, sounds like you have your mind made up no matter what anyone says.

slowpoke rodriquez said:
My duty handgun is the M&P .40, and my CCWs are generally either a J-frame Smith or a Glock 19.

I live in a world where my legally owned Glock 19, that I've had for nearly 30 years, is illegal to use...welcome to L.A.!

So you typically carry striker fired guns or a revolver.

slowpoke rodriquez said:
I'm not a fan of Condition 2 carry because of the risk inherent in dropping the hammer, and also the different muscle memory one would need to train.

You apparently realize that muscle memory training is a factor.

slowpoke rodriquez said:
That was a concern I had (reholstering), but then I realized I block the hammer with my thumb while reholstering, so practically it wouldn't happen.

Do you block the non-existent hammer on your M&P or Glock 19 when you reholster?

The whole reason for the existence of the thumb safety is because the US military required Browning to add it to allow safe re-holstering of a loaded weapon.

It appears that muscle memory training doesn't concern you when it applies to the way you've decided to carry your 1911.
 
As a LEO, I'm technically exempt, but for ethical reasons, I wanted a weapon that is legal for the general public.

This doesn't make sense but ok.


What tactical advantage does anyone expect to gain by not having to deactivate the 1911 safety, 0.2 of a second?

Someone who is so excited that he can't think to deactivate a safety probably can't do a lot of other things very well, either. More training is needed if that is the case. Mine is cocked and locked, as it was meant to be.

Exactly.
 
Slowpoke,
You probably realize by now that whatever you decide to do will no doubt find disagreement with someone around here.
Just weigh the options, do what seems right for you and make up your own mind.
That's what it's for.
Who's to say that anybody else's ideas are better than yours anyway.
Enjoy your new 1911, however you choose to use it.
Just be careful not to put yer eye out.
 
First off, the OP already HAS his 1911A1 (ok waiting on delivery..) so, remarks about which other guns he should get that are better, and for what, simply don't matter, or add anything useful.

Yes, but the Military usage of the 1911 on horseback bears LITTLE resemblance to CCWing the gun today.

I will agree on that, certainly. But CCWing the gun today also bears LITTLE resemblance to the on the hip, open carry (in a flap holster) that the gun was made for. The 1911 was built to be a service pistol. Not a CCW. OF course, you can CCW a 1911, many people have, and do. You just have to accept the fact that there are limitations, and there are other guns better suited to CCW.

They carried the gun in condition 3 (empty chamber) and only charged the gun when needed. They NEVER intended the gun to be carried regularly with a round in the chamber (safety or no)

Actually, it seems that they did at one time intend for the gun to be carried, chamber loaded, hammer down.

There are two main points to consider here, #1) that we are talking here about ARMY rules (include Navy & Marines as well), and the Army has a different approach to risk assessment than you or I do.

#2) the Army went through its own learning curve with the 1911. The previous service pistols had been revolvers (SA and later DA) and they understood revolvers pretty well. They didn't understand semi autos to the same degree, until after some years of first hand experience with them in the hands of the troops.

Training on the pistol in the military has never been what could be called through for the non police troops. A few minutes of instruction and a range session was about all most ever got, and many, not even that.

Lowering the hammer on a live round can be done quite safely by nearly all individuals, BUT when you apply it to the masses as policy, you ARE going to have accidents, especially when less than ideal conditions are applied, as well.

Also, there is the fact that the majority of the military is composed of young men, some even still in their teens, and absent the immediate presence of superiors (hopefully older and wiser) some of them ARE going to screw around with their weapon. Which is likely to produce more AD/ND accidents than those actual accidents such as slipping while lowering the hammer on a live round. And those who were screwing around aren't likely to admit it wasn't an "accident" because they were screwing around.

The Military changed the carry policy to chamber empty not for the safety of the user, but for the safety of the Military overall, to reduce the number of "accidents" that were happening because there was a live round in the chamber.

Remember, they were looking at what is going to work best (outside of immediate combat) for a large group of users. NOT what was or is the best method of carry for personal defense.

The 1911 has .020" of sear engagement..

I just checked one of mine, and its .030", but, so what?? Due to the shape of the parts and the angles of contact, what usually happens if the cocked hammer receives a blow strong enough to break the sear nose, the hammer pin shears, and the hammer flies out of the gun.

One can postulate a freak accident that will fire any gun, even a Glock. Personally, I'm fine a gun that normally is safe in to common accidents, even if you can get it to go off under extremely uncommon conditions.

Other, newer gun designs might be mechanically safer, after all, they should be, having had all the years of 1911 use to study.

None of them are any safer than the user, however, and while the 1911 has been superseded in service use by other designs I think it still entirely adequate for personal carry. That being said, there are other designs today that are superior in some ways. I used to carry a 1911, until I got a Sig P220. Same ammo, same capacity, smaller and lighter. Better for me to carry. I didn't get it because of the DA/SA thing, I just learned to live with.:D

Nothing wrong with a 1911A1 style gun, even in GI configuration (other than the sights;)). If you're a lefty, get the safety lever on both sides.

If the gun isn't what you want or need it to be, get it modified or get a different gun, its really that simple.
 
I'll check out the King, Wilson and EGW.

King's is out of business, and the Wilson and EGW "fully machined from barstock" parts are over $100; do you want to spend $150 or more to have an ambi installed on a $500 gun?
Proper installation is absolutely necessary for a long service life. I have ambis on all of my guns, and the $70 parts from Wilson and Cylinder & Slide have held up very well for me.
 
I'm not a lefty, but back in my IPSC days, when I had to shoot left-handed, I just trained my left thumb to reach around the gun, snick off the safety, and then go back where it belonged.

Never seemed that big a deal to me. I just tried it again after all these and years and it still doesn't seem all that hard.
 
The first step in the draw stroke is "grab the gun in a firing grip".
I definitely would not compromise my grip on the gun to either thumb cock or to put the thumb on the wrong side (when ambi safeties are so readily available).
Some lefties advocate using the trigger finger to disengage the safety, but, again, I don't see how you can do that unless it's while the gun is still in the holster, or without compromising your grip on the gun?
 
I can see pinning down the grip safety. Rubber bands, with a pin, etc. But the safety switch? I don't think I'd go through with that one. If it falls it'll go off, if it's actuated (the grip safety) while holstered, inertia from following could discharge it. Sorry man, huge "NO" over here.

Check out a more modern design in .45ACP.
 
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